The SoCal and Texas Real Estate Connection: Southern California middle class disappearing into Texas thanks to high real estate prices.
Typically at the height of any bubble, you have housing cheerleaders talking about a “new normal†as if they have magically figured out a new secret. California is a land of booms and busts. We just had a boom. So counter to all of the history we have and common sense, somehow there is no correction to follow, this time. That is the logic. First, you have the idea of ignoring income. Second, you have the idea of every area being a candidate for gentrification. Finally, you have the “if you can’t afford it, leave†argument. Forget about any Black Swan like events that are bound to happen. The middle class is already leaving, many into inland areas of California but many to more affordable states. Many house humpers use emotion to base their arguments. I understand this. Go to any open house and you have people looking like lemmings trying to buy a home. Most of the time, there is this deep source of desperation in their eyes. You do realize you are locking yourself into a crap shack for 30 years right? That is assuming many can compete which they can’t (hence the domestic out migration). Many are leaving to places like Texas. Texas as you know has incredibly affordable real estate relative to SoCal. And SoCal domestic residents have figured this out.
Housing values in SoCal impact Texas migration patterns
One of the very interesting points the data is showing is that at peaks, the SoCal area is a top destination of migrants into Texas real estate. Take the Dallas-Fort Worth market. Typically the top two sources of migrants into the Dallas-Fort Worth market come from other Texas areas. These tend to be Houston and Austin. That makes sense.
But at the height of our bubbles in SoCal, suddenly Los Angeles shows up on the list as number two (even in non-peak years the LA metro area tends to be a big source of movers). Take a look:
1994 and 1995 was near the peak of another SoCal bubble. Incomes do matter. And look at 2007 and 2008. Incomes do matter. Even in off years prices are still very high for the middle class in California and many continue to move out. So where is the buying coming from? We’ve talked about it that there is a lot of investor money, foreign money, and house horny couples willing to max out their entire balance sheet for a crap shack. This changes the culture of areas: more Californians in Texas and more foreigners in target cities.
To that point, you have places like Irvine trying to relocate a veteran’s cemetery because of feng shui beliefs. Part of this is cultural but another part of this is people trying to keep home values inflated for those likely to buy (in the case of Irvine, large amounts of money from China):
“(OC Register) IRVINE – In less than a decade, runways where fighter jets once lofted Marines into the air could become acres of green grass dotted with white headstones marking the Southern California Veterans Cemetery.
That image, for many veterans and their families, provides comfort.
But for a group of Asian residents that live near Irvine’s Great Park, the image is appalling – any cemetery would violate a strong cultural taboo of living near the dead.
Now, even as the state Department of Veterans Affairs prepares to request federal funds to build the cemetery, residents in the neighborhood – including people who aren’t worried about the bad feng shui – are pushing city officials and others to make sure it’s built somewhere else. Property values, many say, will be damaged.â€
Just recently the cemetery was voted to move forward. But over the years many middle class Californians have voted with their feet and have left the state to Texas. You can chart this out:
This reinforces the previous data showing that when SoCal crap shacks get out of whack on the values front, people start leaving the state. Now the majority don’t leave and that has created a boom in rental prices and we now have many more households that rent.
And companies of course are also following:
“(Zillow) Despite recent gains, homes in Dallas remain much more affordable than homes in Southern California, which may act as a natural draw for those Southern Californians willing and able to move and looking to reduce housing costs. The median home value in the Dallas-Fort Worth metro was $177,600 at the end of 2015, compared to an average of $451,300 across Southern California.
Additionally, a number of large companies recently announced plans to relocate or expand corporate offices in the Dallas-Fort Worth area, which is also likely to bring new residents from farther-flung and potentially more expensive markets, including Southern California. Car manufacturing giant Toyota moved its North American corporate headquarters from Torrance, California (just outside of Los Angeles), to Plano, Texas (northeast of Dallas), in 2014. Liberty Mutual Insurance, State Farm Insurance and Facebook are also among the larger corporate names to expand in the Dallas area in recent years.â€
Torrance is crap shack central. So obviously extremely high home prices do have a larger impact on local economics as well. Of course some will say incomes don’t matter. Like most things in life, it doesn’t matter until it does.
gnals and demand would suggest otherwise. They look at demographics and income figures and realize people simply can’t afford homes at these prices. There is still a housing crisis in America. All it means is that more income is being sucked into a largely unproductive sector of our economy.
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177 Responses to “The SoCal and Texas Real Estate Connection: Southern California middle class disappearing into Texas thanks to high real estate prices.”
Housing To Tank Hard Soon!
I second this. Housing To Tank Hard Soon!
I third this. Housing to tank sooooooon!
If you can stomach the move to Texas…it’s not a bad thing. Way more bang for your buck. Jobs are plentiful in Texas too. Me personally, I would pick Phoenix, Denver or North Carolina first.
Phoenix in the Summer is literally an oven. Denver weather is not that great and prices for RE are very, very high. North Carolina is nice and affordable and the ocean is there.
Eastern WA also has nice weather year round, plenty of well paying jobs and very affordable RE prices.
Yuk
Eastern wa is an armpit full of illegals and getting worse by the day!
The weather sux, cold has hell in the winter, hot has hell in the summer.
Whoever told you it was a great place to live with high wages is LYING to you buddy! Sorry
Many Californians will not move to NC due to the extreme power of the fundamentalists driving the conversation in NC. See their so-called “Religious Freedom” laws and the Anti-LGBT bill that caused so many business to put projects on hold and concerts to be cancelled. NC is no longer a serious player for domestic migration despite lovely, liberal bastions in Asheville and Charlotte.
Melvins,
If you have that opinion of Eastern WA, that means you lived in an arm pit area like Yakima or Pasco. I feel sorry for you.
All cities of the country have poor and rich areas. It has to do with where you live. The difference between Eastern WA and CA is that for the price of luxury in Eastern WA you live in crap shack in CA where bullets are flying through the wall.
Does it occur to you that some people like 4 seasons and clean air instead of the same smog and traffic bumper to bumper at constant temperature?
I have to agree with you about Eastern WA. It is nice area and plenty of hunting and fishing a short drive away. Where in California you are limited on your choices. Also i see they have been updating a lot of old buildings and new growth has been coming to the area but at reasonable pace from what I have seen.
Chris-in-OC claims that North Carolina is no longer a serious player for domestic migration? Please, probably even more people will want to move there since the state has much to offer. There was nothing anti-gay or anti-trans about North Carolina’s laws which set a uniform definition of what constitutes illegal discrimination and requires that people use public restrooms that correspond to their biological sex. Radical gay-nazis and leftists who are dependent on big government welfare can always choose to remain in California which looks more like a corrupt third world hellhole every day.
I lived Phoenix for 4 years and actually liked it. Only moved back to San Diego because that is where family and friends are.
I am not joking when I say 100 degrees in Phoenix is perfectly fine, it is only when it gets above 105 that it becomes uncomfortable. You have 3 to 4 months out of the year with these temperatures. If you account for the monsoon season, part of the day might be 115 degrees but in the afternoon it drops to 95.
I know ” it’s a dry heat” is the biggest laugh in the book but it’s true.
Electricity is 12 cents a kilowatt hour so keeping cool isn’t hard. Our electric bills for a 3000 square foot house were 400 a month for three months, then the rest of the year heating and cooling averaged 70.00 a month.
Seismic,
You are an idiot!
A person who is dressed like a man, with a beard and hairy chest, and feels like a man, should not be forced into a women’s restroom, because their is a vagina between his legs, just so that you can be happy.
Your hate is accomplishing the complete opposite of your goal. You want to force a person who in eve y resprect looks like a man, into a women’s restroom, freaking out all of its occupants.
Grow up.
Martin,
I’m not forcing anyone to use any bathroom. I really don’t care what bathroom he/she/it uses.
In the past, public bathrooms were quietly used by transsexuals and cross dressers. No one made a big deal about it until the radical totalitarian left and LGBT-nazis decided to make an issue of it and demanded that “special” rights be legislated.
Totalitarianism is about the radical left politicizing everything and using force to gain their political goals. The politicization of everything naturally leads to the enforcement of everything.
Under the radical left’s demands, everyone will now be made to care about men who claim they “identify†as women, or vice versa, while pushing their way past you and into public restrooms.
You’re a brainwashed authoritarian leftist whose hate is accomplishing the complete opposite of your goal.
No doubt you are a bitter drag queen who could never pass as a real woman?
Martin, just because someone believes that a person born with a penis is a man, and a person born with a vagina is a woman — that there is no such thing as “a woman born in a man’s body” — does not mean that they hate anyone.
A man who goes through trans surgery does not become a woman. He becomes a self-mutilated man.
That doesn’t mean I “hate” this self-mutilated man. But I do not believe that he is now a woman, anymore than I believe that black is white, or that 2 + 2 = 5.
I am not “phobic.” I am pro-reality.
Martin, the rights of those wanting to use a bathroom corresponding to their God-given gender shouldn’t be violated by those that are confused about their own gender. A woman wearing a beard, dressing as a man, and trying to “feel” like a man is also going to freak out the occupants of the men’s room. So your argument cuts both ways.
Calling somebody an idiot and telling them to grow up undermines any credibility you have on this issue of hate. Your display of venom and viciousness for those that want sanity in public restrooms shows that you are the hater here.
Martin, there is no such thing as a man born in a woman’s body, or visa versa.
A man who undergoes a “sex change” operation does not become a woman. Nor does he become “the woman he already was inside.” Rather, he becomes a self-mutilated man.
Believing this does not mean that I “hate” this self-mutilated man. It does not mean that I am “phobic.” It means that I am rational, and that I acknowledge reality.
ILtoCorona – damn that’s setting the bar low, is Texas that bad? I mean, I visited San Antonio once and it honestly sucked sweaty donkey balls, but if you’re saying TX is actually worse than Phoenix, Denver, or anywhere in North Carolina we’re talking a whole new level of suckage.
Well, I live in Tucson Arizona not great for jobs. It gets hot but Texas is humid hot so is Florida. Utah is probably a better deal even if its cold but people don’t like the Mormon enviroment.
I lived in the bay area for alot of years – Im in SA now for 30 plus years….yes it was HOT in the beginning but you get used to it – I miss the beauty of Calif but not the HIGH COST OF LIVING….money talks my friend. Everything here is a whole lot cheaper than Calif.
Lanny – when you are homeless because there are no jobs in SA, things are not effectively cheaper, they’re a lot more expensive.
I lived in Phoenix for 2 years. My throat hurt for breathing so much AC air throughout the day. Denver prices are almost SoCal level by now and its getting pretty cold. Never been to North Carolina but isn’t it basically Texas?
No, North Carolina is less humid than Texas or Florida. It gets colder more. Personality, I don’t like Southern Culture. I prefer Arizona, Utah, Colorado, Oregon or Washington over southern states.
Polish-Paul I was in the south end of Scottsdale right by the big Motorola building and I swear, there was maybe a week total per year I wasn’t running either the AC or the heat – most of the time the AC of course.
Then there’s the haboob, look that nasty thing up.
Texas isn’t terrible but I don’t know about that state having plenty of jobs. Around the major metro areas its OK but outside of them its dead as any other rural-ish area.
Mostly it seems the “Texas miracle” has been due to “beggar thy neighbor state” policies and the oil/gas boom that have seemed to have run out of rope these couple of years.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_may_2014/features/oops_the_texas_miracle_that_is049289.php?page=all
The big shocker to me was that per capita income in Texas has dropped compared to some other states. The article gives a chart of Texas per capita income vs Vermont and the difference is dramatic. Other states aren’t as much but still there has been a drop.
Essentially much of the job growth these last few years in Texas has been of the minimum wage variety despite the economic growth. Most of the economic growth has been going to a very few rich and well connected people in the state. Who don’t pay much in the way of taxes for that state and so public infrastructure is really starting to suffer lately there.
Driving in Austin was every bit as bad as Southern CA a few years ago and its only getting worse.
Driving in Austin vs SoCal. I travel between these locales regularly. My colleagues can afford a decent newer house on less salary than their SoCal counterparts in real adjusted terms for region, maybe have an irritating commute, but livable. Here in SoCal, a comparable housing situation comes standard with a horrid soul sucking commute.
By the way, it’s hot as hades so far this week here in SoCal, even by the beach, makes the air pollution just that much worse, and we’re not even out of April yet.
Again…all just my personal opinion. I wouldn’t pull the trigger on Phoenix due to intense heat in the summer. Denver would need to re-acclimate to the cold and not alot of corporations there. NC is great in my book, but other side of the country.
Mileage may vary, I just didn’t prefer Texas. Hot, Humid, many bugs, other crappy things.
Lived in Phoenix from 1995 through 2013. Started in Chandler, then Phoenix proper, Scottsdale and then had a house built in 1999 in Northeast Phoenix, by Cave Creek.
It seemed that starting in 2000, heat started coming earlier (100 degree days in May/April) and would last longer (100 degree days until November/October). We also started getting these giant dust storms called “Haboobs”, which we had never heard of before. We had one dust storm a year, then it became 2 and then 3, etc. And these are giant monsters of dust. Several miles high and several, several miles wide. Everything coated with dust after they pass through the entire Phoenix metro area.
Also, politicians started getting more and more right wing conservative with a strong religious bent. Which for those with a “live and let live” attitude, just drove us crazy!
So, when real estate prices started going back up in 2013 we sold our house. Less than 5 days on the market and over 3 competing bids.
Now we live in San Diego. We’re renting because we feel that houses, I.E. crap shacks are too overpriced and they just don’t line up with local incomes. It’s cheaper to rent than to buy right now.
Waiting until price correction. Even better would be higher interest rates. Which will force prices down (lower property taxes as well) and a higher interest rate means a high mortgage interest deduction with the IRS. And if rates fall again, then just refinance. While locking in that lower property tax, which thanks to Prop 13 will stay capped at no more than 2% increase per year.
Agreed, Phoenix is a S-Hole. I lived there there some years back. In Scottsdale, Tempe, Phoenix, etc. And it is hot as hell. It is hot during the day and hot during the night. There is no let up until Nov -Dec. Your whole day revolves around trying to stay out of the heat. I literally had things left in my car melt. Phoenix has grown immensely over the past ten years and they too have heavy traffic and a very high rate of violent crime. If you dare move to Phoenix you probably want to live in Scottsdale and nice homes there aren’t exactly cheap anymore. The only thing I miss about Phoenix was the numerous Happy Hours they had every day at most bars. Early, middle, late happy hours with free appetizers. There is a lot of drinking going on in Phoenix, probably why they are one of the top US cities for DUI arrests. But what else is there to do when it’s 110 degrees outside?
I have left california for Texas and Florida… both times I ended up returning
Texas thanks you. I don’t know about the penis state.
Florida thanks you as well. We don’t need or want liberals who think men should use the ladies room if they prefer (re post on NC on Georgia).
ILtoCorona states “If you can stomach the move to Texas…it’s not a bad thing.” Apparently 75 percent of Toyota employees agree and they want to move to Toyota new corporate campus in Plano, Texas where Toyota is moving their headquarters from Torrance. Toyota’s new corporate headquarters in Plano is slated to open in 2017.
Although three quarters of its workforce is ready to relocate to Dallas, Toyota’s CEO said that doesn’t mean that 75 percent of them will be invited to come to Texas.
http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2016/04/11/hold-75-percent-toyota-employees-want-move-company-texas/
If you’re with an employs-you-for-life company like Toyota then that could make Plano wonderful. Just because our economy is so “wonderful” that you have to always plan in terms of becoming homeless. There’s no healthcare for the non-wealthy, no pension plans, no security at all.
Plano was a beloved name for me as a kid because of the Plano brand tackle boxes that were in the store.
I retired from JC Penney, which has its corporate headquarters in Plane. EVerybody wants to get promoted to headquarters until they do. In Plano a cultural event is a BBQ or tractor pull with country music. Everybody talks like Deputy Dawg. Nobody stays there.
There’s no healthcare for the non-wealthy? Obamacare is the law of the land and hospitals are required by law to treat anyone who comes through their doors.
However, millions of middle class Americans will remain uninsured despite Obamacare
because they are in a no-man’s land because they earn too much to quality for either Medicaid or federal subsidies.
https://www.publicintegrity.org/2015/02/02/16681/millions-middle-class-americans-will-remain-uninsured-despite-obamacare
Plano is part of the Dallas-Fort Worth metroplex with a population of almost 7 million. There is a lot more to do than BBQ, tractor pulls, and country music.
https://www.facebook.com/places/Things-to-do-in-Plano-Texas/107925612568471/
Liberty Mutual, State Farm Insurance and Toyota are moving their corporate headquarters to Plano and thousands of jobs are being created.
More than 75 percent of Toyota’s
The problem is that wherever Californians go, the real estate market suddenly becomes a huge crap show. It’s almost like it’s cultural. Expect bidding wars and crazy valuations soon in Dallas, just like Portland and Denver.
Gentrifistating!
Californification… most people moving from CA are already priced out of the best TX neighborhoods just like they were in CA
Gentrifisting hehe.
Hell New Orleans was looking good at least from a distance, since I was following the blog of a busker there, but the rents are up at California levels now. And honestly it’s a shithole.
Could that be due to people “cashing out” on their $1M CA cr**shack that they purchased 20 years earlier for $100K? If they stayed in CA, they would get as much value for their $900K gain as they would anywhere else. It reminds me of the 1960’s show “The Beverly Hillbillies”
Not necessarily – while this is anecdotal evidence at best – I personally know at least 5 doctors (surgeon and anesthesiologists) who went to Tx because they really couldn’t afford a home on the West side of Los Angeles
Do the new immigrants from California start voting for ultra-liberal laws in these new areas, thereby setting them off the path to eventual destruction like they did with CA?
Actually it’s our right-wing loons who seem to be leaving.
Alex, and just what is your living conditions. Seems to me you pay no income taxes because your income is so low.
MaryLu – Oh I pay all right, I pay. But I’m not sure how much is actual income tax, I think it’s mainly going into social security and medicare. Programs I think are great but I’m not sure I’ll live to use ’em.
The little guy always pays the taxes – once you start making enough you get into zero tax territory.
Alex whines “The little guy always pays the taxes – once you start making enough you get into zero tax territory.”
Wrong again.
The latest figures show that the top 1 percent of earners in California accounted for 21.8 percent of the state’s adjusted gross income (AGI), yet provided 45.4 percent of the state’s personal income tax intake. The top 10 percent of California earners brought in 49 percent of the income – and paid 78 percent of the income tax bills. To be in the top 10 percent in California, one need not be super-wealthy since workers who earn above $141,600 are in this upper echelon and pay the high taxes that California’s Democrats require.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/rexsinquefield/2015/06/29/why-you-dont-want-to-be-in-californias-one-percent/#7ae7b8ad49bd
At $141k you’re still paying taxes, but once you get up higher, you use a ton of write-offs and pay little to no tax. Firstly, you’re not making wages, you’re making income on investments that the little guy isn’t even allowed to know about, and you’re writing off a million things. The guy I work for makes about $141k, and if he were more interested in these matters I’m pretty sure he could get money back each and every year.
no state income tax in texas either, right? another 10% boon to your bottom line
Except property taxes are 3%
So that $1M CA house that had $10,000 in yearly taxes
now cost $600K in TX with $18,000 in year laxes
so you just got taxed 8% on your first $100K of income
Thanks!
I heard the property taxes are about 2X CA rates but if you can buy a much less expensive house, you are still ahead.
My aunt has a 3BR house in Austin worth about 500K which is in an older area, property taxes are $9,000/year. She’s been there a long time, over 30 years but is thinking of leaving as it is now hot, crowded and expensive. It used to just be hot. Some of these articles fail to mention there are great places in Cali which cost less like North San Diego county but of course who would want the “secret” to get out? 🙂
Exactly. People are so annoyingly short sighted on the property tax issue, especially in Prop 13 land.
Higher property tax:property price ratio = better federal tax subsidy to deduct against income. Higher taxes act as a governor on the price level, therefore when selling the transaction costs are lower comparable to the same scenario with a high priced but lower taxed shit shack in CA. Then there is all of the shit that’s broken in CA because government revenues are spread so thin. Basically the real estate industry in locales such as CA are a greater burden on the system.
Escoguy. North County San Diego is beautiful and more affordable, but the job market is near non-existent. Most people have to commute to and from San Diego. Not fun.
Not so sure about where to live in Texas with the recent flooding they have been having. It is fair to say living there is like living in Florida in the wet seasons. Definitely will need flood insurance.
Both Texas and Florida are growing too fast in population which means in another decade housing is not cheap. Outside of Austin or Dallas, Texas is not that great for jobs unless you are into the oil business. Colorado has more job opportunities but Denver is not cheap either.
Texas isn’t even cheap now!
It just looks that way vs CA prices.
Avg. Texas home prices is $230K. Avg. yearly salary in Texas is $56K according to indeed.com. So home prices are over 4x yearly salary on average right now in that state. Home prices 3x yearly salary is considered “normal” by historical standards with less than 3x yearly considered to be “cheap”.
Scare quotes are around normal and cheap because those are highly relative terms.
So they’re experiencing at least a mild to moderate housing price boom there. Which doesn’t sound so bad if you don’t understand how fragile the economy is. Too many are without savings and live 1 paycheck away from losing everything. Even a mild recession would be devastating at this point.
In the best neighborhood where you would want to live it is already at CA prices but with 3% property taxes. You get a bigger house that you don’t need though.
Just check the FEMA flood map before you buy @ https://msc.fema.gov/portal/search?
The 500-year flood (0.2%) will occur about once a decade in Texas. The 100-year (1%) flood is called “spring”.
Before you buy in California, don’t forget to check the seismic and earthquake shaking hazard for California:
http://gmw.consrv.ca.gov/shmp/MapProcessor.asp?Action=SHMP&Location=All&Version=5&Browser=Netscape&Platform=Win
http://www.conservation.ca.gov/cgs/rghm/psha
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/states/california/hazards.php
I’m not a big Texas fan. The main problem with Texas is too much population growth which is changing it from being a cheap rent or housing state. It use to be cheaper than Arizona but Austin and Dallas housing and rent is now higher than Phoenix Arizona. Texas is growing about 5 million a decade in people which means the cheap housing will probably end in a decade. Besides, is too humid for me even if I live in Arizona in the heat. I predict that by 2060 Dallas or Houston may be more expensive than LA since Texas has a younger population than California and could have a higher population by then. So, reports Texas 52 million people by 2045.
The population = price rhetoric just gets old. It’s complicated but people want things to be simple.
Yes, population is an input, but it’s relative to all of the other factors involved. Texas has a lot more expansion space for starters.
Texas is humid and Tucson is a dry heat. What is the pro’s and con’s of each. I have always lived in Burbank.
I went to school in Tucson. The foothills are really nice actually. There is space and a lot of beauty. It is hot of course, but I lived in Phoenix for a year after college and it’s gotta be 10 degrees hotter there. I’ve heard its bc of the incredible amount of concrete pavement that just goes on forever and sucks in the sun. I’ll never forget the feeling of coming out of a cool movie theater at 11 at night and getting hit in the face by 110 degrees. And that happens all the time. Phoenix sucks
Roger: the monsoon season in the summer is fantastic.
First year the heat was a bit of a bother. There was snow on my birthday one Feb. Just had a nice rainstorm last week. My friend in LA has been waiting for the big El Nino. Maybe next year. “Storm Watch 2017”.
It IS a dry heat. Sitting out in some shade feels good many times. The air smells wonderful after a rain.
I love Burbank. That was my modest aspiration, to live there eventually. Had a small shack in the Valley. Then came the big flush and I was out of a job.
Had lived in Hollywood for many years, the Valley for 12. My entire adult life was spent in LA.
There has been no looking back. Sadly the graduates of the School Of Bad Government have become entrenched here. Use the road repair money to buy soccer fields and build a trolley downtown with “transportation funds which is in the red 2 million a year. $15 million illegal city loan for an air balloon launch pad. Letting the police force to shrink through attrition. No priorities, just crony government.
Some refer to it as Detroit West. But the people I have met have been down to earth and genuine. I haven’t encountered very many snobs here or poseurs. Or desperate climbers.
And I still don’t miss LA. I wouldn’t give up my experiences there for any price, but I just don’t miss it.
Repeal the Costa-Hawkins Rental Housing Act and Prop. 13!
I’d choose Phoenix over Texas.
In regards to Torrance being crapshack central, someone on another thread was talking about Boeing. I’ve been laid off from Raytheon, and then Boeing, and I can tell you things are a’changin in those necks of the woods.
Raytheon moved it’s manufacturing to McKinney, TX. They have been laying off techs and engineers for years now. I’ve heard they are shifting their focus out here to cyber security, and software related things. They remodeled their cafeteria, put an “X Lounge” in E1 with video games and foosball, and sold off 4 buildings so far. The “E” buildings on El Segundo Blvd, and also R23 and R24. They are in the process of breaking up the south campus on El Segundo Blvd to take advantage of land value. The city of El Seg wants Hughes Way (the back street by Whole Foods) to connect to El Seg Blvd. That’s easy, just open up the back gate to Raytheon, do a little cosmetic remodel, and voila! While you’re at it, since no one works there anymore, instead of having a huge empty parking lot by E7, let’s build some stores there. And lets get rid of that Employee Park, we can put a lot of retail stores there too. That helps us generate rental income revenue, to pay all the Hughes Legacy and Pre-2008 pension obligations we have.
Boeing was my favoite, and is a different animal. They can’t win any contracts because they are too expensive. Yes, they build the Mercedes of satellites, but people want Chevy’s these days. There are also a lot of new players on the market that weren’t around 5 or 10 years ago, building satellites in other states and countries that are cheaper. In the last year, Boeing has let go of most R/F techs, some Digital Techs, most solder and micro-solder girls, and closed the south R/F lab. I don’t know about Antenna or High Bay right now. The WGS program was their bread and butter, and all 10 birds are built except for high bay final assembly. The Hall of Flags is awfully low on foot traffic these days.
I almost think Boeing is doing some of this on purpose though. CEO said he would lay off if the Ex-Im bank closed, so I and many others may have been sacrificial lambs. (At least we have 5 years of recall rights, I love working there!) Then there is the major +50 push going on there, anyone at or over 55, that was Hughes Legacy and has their pension, has been let go. Most of there are engineers that were making $150k to $180k. I know a few. They are now hiring USC and UCLA grads for half that amount. So a seachange is going on over there, they have to lower their labor costs to be competitive. So the days of high pay Aerospace in the South Bay have been ending, although it seems Silicon Beach is taking over with even higher pay. But most Aerospace workers can’t just switch over to that, it’s a different field.
Right now SpaceX is the game in town, if you want to work 10 hours a day, 6 days a week, on 2nd shift.
Quite a few Raytheon refugees moved to Texas. Not I. Wife and I said we would choose Phoenix or Charlotte if we have to leave SoCal. Most aerospace jobs here now pay 1/2 what the big companies do. When you are talking about wages like that, it starts making sense to move. You’re not going to be magically upgraded to a castle by any means, but you are going to get more bang for your buck relative to cost of living, and have a shorter commute, taxes, etc.
Unfortunately Aviation/Aerospace/Government contractor jobs have been deteriorating since the late 90’s when that area turned from TRW’s site. The surrounding areas Westchester-SouthBay had a tremendous boom prior to the 90’s when all your neighbors worked for defense/space program. The cash flow to these type of companies is near non-existent, it’s hard to retool these gigantic buildings. It’s a lot of dead space.
Thing about Aerospace it’s still on some fuel ran buy some old timers. Granted the pace is slower and has predictable day to day work (perk). I’m afraid this will dry up even more so. I took the switch to cyber defense, same inspirational people, same work environment – but there is cash flow here. Don’t get yourself stuck in another 90’s defense crunch. Don’t get too comfortable. You’ll probably hate commercial software development. Find other related avenues.
Speaking of Aerospace… I grew up in Westchester in the 60s and early 70s. The whole neighborhood was full of janitors, technicians and engineers who worked at these companies: Garret, Raytheon, AirResearch, TRW, Northrop, Boeing, LA Air Force Base, Allied Signal, Parker Hannafin, Hughes Helicopter, Hughes Aircraft, McDonnell Douglas, ITT, Lockheed, Honeywell….. anyway probably twice as many more but that is all I can remember.
I lived in Westchester for about a year in the early 90s and there were still *some* tech jobs then, and people seemed to be living OK …. it’s probably a wasteland of desperation now.
Aerospace – wow thanks for that write-up.
Good Point. We are seeing similar trends with the utilities engineering area in Los Angeles. Granted, Power (or utility) Engineers generally at times made less than our Aerospace counterparts, but the benefit for the utility engineer was the “stability”. Well, even in the utility space, there are layoffs after layoffs and yet more layoffs. New hires are given different different retirement plans, reduced pension and pay that is decent but not enough to purchase a home in a safe area in Los Angeles. How much longer do you guys think this can continue ?
Shit, and I was told, in the mid-late 90s that there was a crying need for power engineers.
It’s simply sad… People that have no money to buy or rent in California have to leave the state and look for cheaper places or totally downgrade their living conditions until fit in the real estate.
No choice,capitalism wants to squeeze all of us,if you leave California, no problem, there hundreds of new candidates that will occupy your place.
It’s all planned and the Bilderberg’s are happy with that.
The more trapped in your mortgage/rent you are , the less leeway you have , so more oportunities for the establishment to keep their wealth safe and increased.
Now how in hell would all of this help the Bildersbergers?
This is going to take more than repealing a couple laws. We have added so many layers of laws and commissions it is nearly impossible to build new houses – never mind affordable. All of the city councils and building departments want to protect their perceived quality of life. Rampant NIMBYism is everywhere. Remember George Lucas with all his money and clout couldn’t get a place built in Marin County. At last call he was so disgusted he said, “turn the whole parcel into affordable housing”. Talk about rubbing their face in it. In the coastal areas the unelected California Coastal Commission will stop virtually anything. Maybe they should vote on repealing the law of Supply and Demand? This state has to hit the bottom before a 12 step program is engaged to get rid of the insufferable micromanaging government people trying to “help” us. Until the 90’s this was a really great place to live. Remember that San Diego and Tijuana are only 10 feet apart. One is among the most expensive places in the county and the other a poverty struck drug infested hell-hole. The difference between the two is the government and the environment it creates.
Do you mind expanding on the “many layers” you speak of. A few specifics would help clarify your position. Otherwise your comment is more of the empty rhetoric that got us here in the first place. The whole “supply and demand” comment is cute but again just empty rhetoric. This country needs less Sarah Palin types who pretend like they are informed and educated.
That would be “fewer Sarah Palin types”, not less. For education’s sake.
Your correct. Just joking… You’re correct. Just another example of how this country is falling apart thanks to petty bickering. Feel free to point out any other errors you see.
There is air conditioning available in states with hot and or humid summers. True, you have to buy the electricity to operate it and if you go to areas with cold winters you also have to pay for heating. The operative factor is called ‘degree days’ and it represents the daily mean temperature above or below 65 F. You can look up an areas heating and cooling load on line.
Since heating and cooling costs money and rates for electricity and gas vary from one place to the other people who are moving to a different climate need to inform themselves as to what it will cost to heat and cool the home they intend to buy. The best way is to ask to see the old owners utility bills as houses vary depending on the insulation, the direction that they face ( South and West provide more solar heating during the day which is good if you are moving to New England but not so good if you are moving to Dallas).
Utility bills can be substantial. After Hurricane Katrina did a number on the gas fields I had customers in Central Virginia that winter who were paying more to heat their homes than their mortgage payment. Californians ( and Texans) depend on gas for both home heating and electricity generation. The recall of Grey Davis owed as much to high gas prices that year as ENRON manipulation of CASIO power prices.
Fortunately ‘fracking’ has greatly increased the US gas supply and both electricity and home heating costs have fallen though maybe not in California due to your state ‘Green’ requirements.In the winter of 2005/2006 gas cost as much as $14/thousand cubic feet at the Henry Hub in Louisiana. A lot more for local utilities located far from the gas fields ( if they could get it as home heating comes first so power plants can be shut down ). Today the same 1000 cu.ft costs about $2.
With that said, most places in the US have a temperate climate. It is neither cold or hot year round. Around Sarasota, Florida where I now live it is hot and humid for about 3 or 4 months. OTOH the average daytime high is 72 in January. It doesn’t get above the low 90’s in July and August but it is humid so my electricity bill is twice the average during those months. The difference is I am not paying $1000 per square foot for a Sausalito condo but have a very nice one here that cost me $225 and, yes, I still have water views and a marina downstairs. I can even afford a boat and the water temperature here is warmer here in January than it is in San Francisco in July!
Most parts of SoCal get hotter than hell at least six months out of the year and require A/C to be comfortable. It gets cold enough everywhere to require heat at varying times of the year.
All I know is, I have a friend who moved to Texas (from OC), made loads of money, lived in a gigantic house and could not wait to move back to SoCal. He’s now back and instead of OC, he decided to move to Corona. Now he can’t wait to get back to OC.
In the end of the day, it’s always supply and demand… The demand is great here and the house humpers are even greater!
Of course people moving to or back to California after making their money elsewhere is precisely why coastal California is so damned expensive. Its not a ‘local’ housing market dependent on ‘local’ incomes.
Surveys show that the ‘wealthy’ only have about 10% of their net worth in their home. That gives them a lot of ‘play’ in their housing choices. The problem is that they acquire the choicest properties and it cascades down the housing value ladder as those with less money have to settle for less desirable property.
Exactly. And, I would also argue there are more wealthy people than statistics show.
I doubt that. The cases of people moving away to strike gold and come back probably aren’t enough to change the margins.
More likely we have a housing affordability problem mostly because of systemic imbalances caused by local and state policies. More succinctly, there are a lot of conflicting subsidies in California which tend to favor two ends of the spectrum over the middle.
I would argue that there’s a bigger underground economy than the statistics show … I could easily double my income by getting back into hustling “awareness” ribbons and the additional income would be all off the books … but there are people running all kinds of schemes that make *real* money and that might be paying or helping pay for some of those houses on the Newport Peninsula.
Most troubling to me: Who in their right mind would move from Austin to Houston?
Many retired people can’t afford Austin’s taxes (and can’t tolerate the hipster invasion). Houston has a huge medical complex with every kind of specialty hospital and thousands of world-class doctors, more art museums than you can shake a Picasso at, and professional sports to excess. And the food’s not bad.
Long time lurker here and appreciate the diversity of viewpoints. Sorry for the long post, but here it goes:
We moved to TX last year after having lived in Nor Cal and So Cal almost all our lives. Our main motivation was housing price. The move wasn’t work related. It took some getting used to, but we are adapting just fine. The worst part is probably the mosquitoes; the best part is definitely having a nice house without a mortgage. Just sharing my personal experience.
After getting funds from the sale of our So Cal house for $600k (move-in condition, upgraded kitchen and baths, 3 bd 2 ba, 1300 sq, 4500 sq lot, in the Inland Empire with great schools), we bought a house cash for $250k, a little above asking price (similar conditions as the one we sold, 3bd, 2.5 ba, 2-story, 2100 sq, 8700 sq lot, built in 1992–a house that my wife thinks is not in as nice a neighborhood as our previous one in California, but I disagree; It is probably equal to a $700k house in a nice part of OC with top schools at all three levels; maybe $800k in Irvine, for comparison) about 1/2 north of Austin, probably equivalent of living 30 miles outside of Orange County, CA. in a pretty nice suburb, again with top schools. Cost of Austin homes are about $200k less than comparable home in comparable neighborhood in OC, so that house we bought would’ve been around $500k in Austin, so that’s why we stayed in the outer lying area. Property tax rate is about 2x as that of CA, but for a house at that price, I’m paying the same as I did in CA (about $4500 annually).
For those who are considering a move to Austin, TX, the comparisons below are from our experience living in So Cal.
Pro’s of our move to TX: very friendly neighbors, several of whom brought us cookies during our first days of moving in; during Christmas, a group of carolers came by to sing in front of our house. Our kids did not know how to receive them and stayed inside to watch them through the window. We’ll have cookies ready next year. (It’s personal, but things like that leave a strong impression especially if you’re just moving in from out-of-state. We’ve never experienced such neighborliness in any of the 5+ homes we’ve lived in in California); Cheap gasoline/fuel; Cost of college tuition I estimate to be about 1/2 as that of CA, at least for now. I have little kids, so that’s a big consideration; No driving test needed for a TX license; just need to hand over your CA license; A good amount of lakes, streams, trails, and outdoor activies (the reservoir 1/2 hour away is at capacity after the heavy rains in the past 2 years); This also means good fishing; Restaurants and big box stores are everywhere (HEB is everywhere; it’s like a Costco and Walmart combined; those stores are here also); Lots of trees and space everywhere; Great schools, and of course great housing prices!!!
Con’s of our move: Definitely mosquitoes (you can always get a spraying system installed around your house, or get rid of a lot trees around the yard. Homes here tend to have a lot of foliage and trees for shade.); Also large cockroaches, but luckily not the German variety (no bias against Germans). They are sometimes refered to as Palmeto bugs or beetles. They are huge, but easy to get rid of; No nearby ocean beaches. The closest one is in the Gulf about a 5-6 hour drive; Rush hour traffic is as bad as So Cal. From my house to Austin (20 miles) probably takes an hour during high traffic hour; Family being so far away in CA; Food costs about the same. I was expecting it to be a little cheaper. Fruits are a little more pricey. Not as many variety of fruits and other specialty food items as in So Cal; It’s about 10 degrees Fahrenheit hotter in the summer and 10 degrees colder in the winter (the heat and humidity weren’t so bad, around the mid to hi 90’s in July and August. People have their AC turned up throughout the summer, but we did not, to save money. I installed a couple of whole-house fans and set them on for an hour in the evenings. Winter averages about 40’s at night and 60’s in the daytime. There were a couple of nights when it was down to the low 30’s, but didn’t have any water pipes freezing. There were probably two instances of pea-size hail.) Utilities: Water/garbage/sewage: $100/month; Gas: $50/mo (We set the thermostat to 65F in the evenings); Electricity: $50/winter monthly; $100/Summer monthly (We set the AC thermostat to 83F in the evenings in the summer–that would be considered too warm for most, but we manage; The weather can be extreme (6 years ago, almost all of the homes in our area had hail damage and had to have their roofs replaced), so homeowner’s insurance is not only required if you have a mortgage, but highly recommended even without a mortgage. So count on at least $1000-$1500/year for homeowner’s insurance. If you live near a creek (possible FEMA designated flood zone), count on flood insurance as well; Also, there are a lot of train tracks, so if you’re sensitive to noise, make sure you Google the surrounding locations closely before looking at a house.
Since this move wasn’t work related, I have no experience in that area to share. However, Dell computers and a lot of tech startups are in the Austin area. We have family that just moved here for the similar reason–housing cost. They just bought a very nice house for $550K in Austin. The husband is a software engineer and is confident he can land a job here. He currently works on contract and telecommutes with some companies in various areas.
Misc. observations: Texans are wary of Californians ruining their conservative state with “liberal” values and votes. One elderly neighbor asked if we were liberals from California. We try to blend in as much as possible and had our license plates registered as soon as possible. They’re also not too happy about us Californians jacking up their home prices. On another note, the drive back to California isn’t all that bad. We recently took an emergency trip back, van loaded with kids, took turns driving, and it took only two days.
Lastly, despite all the flooding in the news in Texas, the Austin area has not had any flooding. Just don’t buy a house next to a creek and you’ll be safe. The worst it ever got was about 10 years ago, and the major flooding was around the creek areas, damaging a lot of homes. I heard they’ve since fixed most of the water drainage issues. Most of the TX flooding is in Houston and sometimes Dallas areas, which are about 4-5 hours drive from here.
Of course this move isn’t for everyone. If job security is a concern, I would try to secure a job before moving. If you’re on a fixed income or can live without income for up to a year, I think the move is worth it financially. If you sell your $600-$800 k house and bought one with cash for $300-$400k, you can live comfortably for at least a year. Living without a mortgage is definitely worth it to us. The rest of the negatives (climate, lack of an ocean beach, etc.) is something to consider, but definitely manageable. Maybe for you being away from family is not worth the move; but, there’s always FB and Skype =).
Skeeters: Put up BAT HOUSES. You can build or buy ’em. Also look for any standing water and empty that stuff out. I believe there are also mosquito traps that emit a small stream of CO2 and trap ’em. That’s how they zero in on us, by following the trail of CO2 we emit.
Roaches: Yeah we called ’em “skateboards” or “747s” in Hawaii. Seal up food products, you’ll keep a lot things in the fridge than you’re used to, and use boric acid or Roach Prufe which is just boric acid dyed blue lol.
Kerrville is my favorite spot, along with Kinky Friedman. Kerrville is about an hour from San Antonio, it is in the Hill country. Since it is a little drier than Georgetown, not so many bugs.
Does your house come with tornado shelters? Tornadoes always worried me in TX.
@Jason: I’ve yet to come across a home with a basement, if that’s what you are referring to for tornadoes. It’s all limestone around here, so I guess that makes it too costly to dig basements. It’s not unheard of, but I think Central Tx isn’t as bad weather-wise as Dallas or Houston–but I could be wrong.
I too made the move from SoCal (born and raised) to Houston in hopes of buying acreage for my growing immediate family. Lived there for a year and ended up fleeing back to socal due to the cost of housing. Prices were much higher than we had anticipated, especially in the areas we liked after living there for awhile.
Houston in itself is a strange place. The city’s sprawl is gigantic. Takes about an hour to drive through the city (without traffic!) and almost every freeway is a toll road. There’s also an underlying sense of lawlessness there that people exert in public (which is a scary when you have two infant girls). Not once, but on multiple occasions, I saw people driving on the wrong side of the FREEWAY….full speed, with no cops in sight….super scary. Just like any other major city, people are unfriendly, lotsa “fingers” and “eff-you’s”.
Living in Houston did help me appreciate just how nice the weather here in SoCal is. Summer days were 95+ with 95% humidity (the Houston natives said it was a “mild” summer too!). So I always chuckle when people complain and moan about the weather here in SoCal, “Oh it’s soooo hot out…85° and 50% humidity…I’m almost breaking a sweat!”.
Go the fuck back to CA please. We Texans are sick of your shit.
I second that!! Californians have ruined Austin and are working overtime to ruin beautiful Houston and Dallas too.
One of my contacts from Plano is buying a house and told me he was recently outbid twice by all-cash buyers offering above asking price. Until recently, this was unheard of in Texas. Californians are exporting their bubble mentality and he is now scrambling to buy a place because he doesn’t want to be left out of the market. He said there are at least 12 construction cranes on the horizon working on different projects, but home builders can’t keep up with the demand. Toyota is flooding the market with 4,000 high paid workers from Torrance that are used to paying California prices, and they are rapidly converting local Texans to the “home prices only go up†religion.
The definition of a bubble: “he is now scrambling to buy a place because he doesn’t want to be left out of the market.”
People from LA should have no problem adjust to Texas. Both are hot, dry and ugly.
You’ve obviously never have visited SoCal.
Unless you live within 20 miles of the coast, SoCal is hot, dry and ugly. The millions of people who live in SoCal would die of thirst without the water that is brought from Northern California via the aqueducts and from the the Colorado River.
Seismic is correct on this. SoCal can only support a very small population without piped in water. And it is indeed deserty; I don’t know if Santa Barbara is considered part of it but traveling up Route 1, you notice a huge difference when you get to it – things get green. Even then, when I stayed there a few days in the late 80s, there was a ban on watering lawns.
No red state for me. No. Way.
Leftists in red states are brainwashed slaves living on the Democrat’s bankrupt welfare plantations.
Uhh, we pump money into red states, a Californian is less likely to be on Welfare than a Red Stater, we have great gun shows, there’s a “tactical” gun shop about a mile from here, and down the street there’s what I call the cop shop (police gear) with Glocks in more colors than Crayola has crayons. If you are California champion is highpower rifle, pistol, etc you are probably also National champion or close.
And if you really want to live the right-wing life you can (a) move to Fallbrook to be near Terrible Tommy Metzger or move to anywhere in the hinterboonies, where Jerry Falwell is considered a lib.
Heard an interesting story last week, friend of coworker’s wife works at UC Berkeley. Her and her husband always socked away money, hoping to buy on a downturn but never got to their price range. She’s got golden handcuffs – UC pension with just a few years from retirement – but realizes they will never buy now and will move after retirement.
I’m not sure what the point of your story is, but it sounds like they are doing pretty good. They “socked away money” for what sounds like a few decades, and will have a nice pension in a few years. Sounds like they could move almost anywhere in the country except the Bay Area, buy a nice property outright and live like royalty.
I talked to an ex-firefighter a few years ago who was receiving nearly a 100K pension from San Diego. He moved to Colorado and is living like a king. Sorry for San Diego who are sending his pension to us but hey.
Blue states pay into Red states as a rule.
I was disgusted to see welfare-as-a-way-of-life in the Red states I’ve been in, but it really is.
It takes us Blue states to keep you guys afloat.
Ok bears, you said housing and stocks were correlated a few months ago. Let me guess “it’s different this time”?
Not sure why this isn’t much more common. I moved from a housing bubble city to get to the US. Salaries in California are just not that high. Maybe 10% higher than the rest of the country. For anyone in the bottom 90% of income earners, moving away will improve quality of life immensely, and likely knock years off retirement age.
When my dad moved from SoCal to Austin his salary offer was a 25% pay cut because “the cost of living is lower here”. And that was the company’s standard haircut when hiring Californians.
who said housing to tank hard soon are the one priced out so they think it will tank hard soon they are dreaming they just peiced out lol
Fatima, I am not priced out at all, I have huge amounts of cash and also own a lot of real estate. People who are bearish on prices on not just upset because they cannot afford to buy, because many of us can, we just aren’t stupid enough to buy at market peaks. And what on earth does ‘just peiced out’ mean? I cannot wait to buy crap shacks off people for pennies on the dollar like I always do when it tanks.
Three years ago cnn ranked the heights in houston the 4th hottest neighborhood in america.some people are priced out,so they are moving to nearby hoods such as northside village,independence heights,garden oaks and oak forest and those hoods are going through gentrification.a new fancy musical stadium has opened last and it’s called white oak music hall,they had a concert and the local paper said it with so many people out it was like the vegas strip.it’s best to buy in theses hoods now,with all this population growth in houston many new residents and locals want to live centrally located.theses neighborhoods are going to get even more pricey.metrosudy and dr. jim gaines are saying since houston,austin and dallas is growing at a fast rate these cities will get even more expensive.if you can afford west u,montrose and the other popular close in hoods in houston buy now or be priced out.texas is experiencing a huge run up in prices just like what’s happening in California.i have watched two documentaries on youtube about people who are moving out of san Francisco and other parts of cali,moving to texas and the locals are getting priced out.one woman from san Francisco who moved to austin said she meet so many people from cali that it took a year to finally meet a austin native.in houston im meeting people who not only from cali but also from nyc,miami etc.
I forgot to mention white oak music hall is very close to the heights,garden oaks,oak forest,independence heights and northside villages theses hoods are now part of the heights,so hurry up and buy.whole foods is going to open in independence heights next year and other companies are moving in.the metro rail is nearby also.if many people ever dreamed of owning prime real estate this is your opportunity.youre close to everything.these neighborhoods are also close to the other pricey hoods such as river oaks,montrose and memorial park.
If you don’t mind the humidity and ridiculously high property taxes, Houston certainly has a lot of things going for it. Now that the shale oil boom has imploded, spectacular job growth is not one of those merits. Recent floods have also caused major headaches. The moniker ‘Bayou City’ is there for a reason.
The healthcare industry (Houston still has one of the world’s largest medical complexes) has helped to support the local economy with the recent downturn, but home prices are beginning to roll over…
http://aaronlayman.com/2016/04/katy-texas-west-houston-real-estate-market-march-2016/
The local paper says sales in katy are weak,but sales in the popular hoods close to downtown are strong.living close in is getting more popular.if houston still had the population it had in 1996,living in the burbs would be great.the city has grown so much now many people want to live close in,im reading comments in the local blogs saying its time to get out the burbs.go check out the pending sales in 77005 in west u,small homes are going for big money just like in cali.check out the home prices in montrose,bellaire and memorial park and the heights they soon will match the prices of the popular hoods and los angeles.the heights is so popular that the prices are coming to northside village,garden oaks,oak forest,independence heights and the other small hoods close to the heights.i bought a house in the heights area in late 2011,its 1,845 sqft my mortgage is only $77,000.im sitting on $400,000 of home equity.so buying in these areas is a great investment.i could cash out but it would be dumb since a million more people are going to move to houston buy 2020.if you wanna be equity rich like me buy now.
LOL! Stop Dj, you are cracking me up! Much of the “equity” of which you speak could easily disappear when things go south. It’s not a question of if, but when. Sales are softening all across Houston, not just Katy. I get emails every day from all of the house humping Houston developers who are advertising their overpriced condo and townhome inventory looking for another sucker to pile in. Prices still look high, but only when you go back and delve into the longer history of price data do you really get a picture of the artificial inflation we have seen.
Make no mistake, we are only in the beginning stages of that mean reversion. “Growth” built on a massive pile of debt is not growth at all. It’s a bug looking for a windshield. Do you honesty think that the exponential growth of the federal debt and the Fed’s balance sheet didn’t contribute to your paper “equity”???
Gentrification…LA style
http://www.unz.com/isteve/gentrifications-battlefront-in-l-a/
Great link. It’s funny how urban planners with their “walkable environments”, multi use zoning, traffic calming, curb extenders and “upscale shops and dining” have produced a sameness as strong as any reviled suburb.
They’ve Disney-ized Hollywood Blvd, Nye Beach in Newport Oregon, Sugar House in Salt Lake City, West Hollywood, down town Tucson. All look like they came out of the same animation studio.
Watching a lot of the house hunting shows, many times the producers will film in the “historic ” downtown. Amazingly: they all look the same.
It always seems when trendy areas arise, developers come in and process out anything organic and spontaneous and funky and replace it with synthetic facades and high end retailers. What was organic and alive is plowed under for a cookie cutter style central planner’s vision of what a “thriving” community looks like.
Have you been to Hollywood Blvd. recently? Far from “Disney-ized”. I guess nothing screams Disney like rundown sex shops and vape stores in your opinon.
You have to keep moving, like a refugee, if you want to be hip. Hipsters can never sleep.
Speaking of homogenizing and emulsifying a once-great downtown, it’s criminal what they did to Huntington Beach. That used to be a really neat downtown, and now it’s all yuppified, and it really feels like a theme park because of the scads of tourists (and scads of cops, don’t spit on the sidewalk) and it seems there’s always a Midwestern couple looking astonished at the surfer sculpture “Ermagerd, he’s got no shorts!”
Great point AZ. The gentrified neighborhoods do all have a hipster mall sameness. It happened in Venice, North Hollywood, West Hollywood, Silverlake, Echo Park etc. Gastropubs, hip bars, and fancy restaurants. And yes – Hollywood is very Disney-fied!!!
Alex, I grew up in Huntington and still live nearby, but I never visit HB downtown anymore. It’s completely unrecognizable as the town I grew up in. Nowadays, I’ll go down to Seal Beach since it still has the sleepy beach town feel. Plus the parking is cheap and less riff raff is there to start fights and cause trouble.
When I read that article it makes me wonder exactly how far these so called “protesters” are willing to go in order to further their cause. It usually starts with property damage and ends with bodily damage.
I meant to say all the popular hoods close to downtown will soon match the prices of the popular hoods in los angeles.there isn’t much land in the hoods close to downtown houston tx.plus youre close to all of the pro sport events as well as the college events,plus youre close to the worlds biggest medical facilities and the petro chemical boom,when oil is down its best to buy in tbe areas i just mentioned.my area in the heights never flooded,my street was fine and all areas in houston never flooded as well.just some parts of houston flooded.
Dj, if you really believe this scat, please refrain from using an alias and use your real name. Transparency would would certainly add some clarity to the argument you are pitching.
During the great recession which lasted for a few years all the popular inner loop neighborhoods were still expensive and they are even more expensive due to all of this population growth.these neighborhoods will never be cheap,these are trophy neighborhoods.in the heights area there is memorial herman hospital and there are other medical places in the area such as dentists,etc.not only when a person buys in the heights area and the other hoods close to it,the medical center which is the worlds largest medical facility is just a few minutes away,i just hop on the metro rail to go to the medical center.everyone that’s moving to houston are not in the oil business.oil has been down since 2014 and 159,000 people still moved to houston.some people have been saying home values in all the popular hoods will be cheap just like in Detroit,which is a bunch of nonsense.how come these popular neighborhoods didn’t fall big time in price during the great recession?i have the answer houston has a bunch of wealthy people,rich people and people who have a good career that pays nice.all of the popular close in hoods that i have mentioned are close to the medical center and other great companies that’s not in the oil business.
Texas. Hot. Flat. No trees.
A cultural event is a BBQ or tractor pull and country music.
Exactly. No way. It’s hot enough here in L.A. these days.
Now, Roddy, they play *western* music too.
+1 Blues Bros reference.
Obviously roddy6667 has never been to Texas which has a beautiful coastline and the the hill country that is filled with lakes and TREES!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Hill_Country
https://www.tourtexas.com/regions/gulf-coast
Must be that everyone who comments here is making $250k or more, has owned a home for awhile in California, is a Prop 13 Baby waiting for the folks to ‘kick the bucket’, or is a public employee hoping for one of those overcommitted pensions! Otherwise bemoaning any other place to live is for fools! If you can’t afford a home, or your rent is 50% of your income, you can’t save a penny for retirement, and you spend most of what you earn every month, then you will have only yourself to blame when you haven’t got a proverbial ‘pot’ in 30 years. Otherwise, there are lots of other places to make a life! Believe it or not, software, tech, engineering, and just about every other career does exist in other cities and states! And, you can often afford to buy, will have a shorter commute, might even find more free time, and just might find more to do. Born and raised in California, worked and lived in Denver, and now spend considerable time in the inland northwest, and travel extensively. I am constantly surprised at how many vibrant and really nice communities there are in many places, and people appear to be thriving!
Here we go again, everyone arguing which state is better to live in. Some people argue subjectively (which is useless and mostly lacks credibility), some argue objectively (which is helpful). I do respect those that are proud of where they grew up.
But here’s the bottom line, just research the most visited city and you’ll see. Subjectivity aside, Cali is the winner by far, statically, over all the other states argued. You can hate all you want, but if you live in SF/SD/LA/O.C., you basically live in a place people travel thousands of miles/sacrifice annual 2 week vacations to visit. I think people value their annual 2 week vacations and the majority picking CALI says something.
I’m sure you’ve heard “nice place to visit, but I wouldn’t want to live there” to describe many places that have an abundance of great weather, scenic beauty, architectural charm, and overall interest, but are terrible places to live. It’s fun to visit these places on an occasional vacation, because you only stay a few days in hotels that cost $350 a night, or eat at trendy restaurants and visit tourist attractions now and then
But, for the most part, everyday life is what you have, especially if you belong to the rapidly-increasing cohort of the population for whom a “vacation” is a visit to the local amusement park, and even that takes planning and saving. And for day-to-day life, a place where people who make $250K a year can barely afford a decrepit 60 year old ranch house in a neighborhood with less than a 60-mile commute, and most people are paying half their take-home pay for a tiny shared apartment in a dodgy neighborhood, is NOT a good place to live no matter how “popular” it is with people who will fly in and out in a week and have scads of money to drop on 4-star restaurants and hotels. I personally love NYC, but I haven’t come this far in life to pay $3200 a month for a squeezy 2-room walkup with the shower stall crammed in next to the kitchen sink and a living-room window that commands a gorgeous view of a wall. I also love Los Angeles for its scenery, architecture, and warm weather, but until (and if ever) I have the money to buy an attractive, decent-sized condo at least, in an attractive, safe neighborhood, I will not consider living there, as much as I like the place.
Other posters are right- there are too many nice cities and towns, many of which have lovely scenery, a fine local culture, nice architecture, where you can buy a fine home for half the money a tiny shack costs in hyper-popular coastal cities, to suffer living in a slum, especially if you have high tech skills that make you employable in a high-salary job nearly anywhere.
Tell that to all the CS grads who are lucky to get a job stocking shelves at Wal-Mart here.
You broach an important point. It’s not how “nice” a city is, but how much of that “niceness” you can afford.
NYC, L.A., and London are among the best cities to live in — if you can afford them. Imagine living in a Bel Air mansion, with a weekend mansion on Malibu beach, and a chauffeured limo so you can relax in traffic? Or a three-story penthouse apt overlooking Central Park, with private indoor swimming pool and 24/7 doorman to keep out the riffraff?
But if you don’t have LOTS of money, then a safe, clean small town can be more pleasant than just surviving amid the crowded proles in NYC or L.A. or London.
You write that subjectivity is useless and then go on to make a subjective argument based on supposed objective data. Best or worst is subjective.
Left San Diego in 2005 and moved to the Space Coast of Florida. The good and the bad…wages are ~10% lower here but cost of living is MUCH lower. Sold a condo in Pacific Beach and built a home 3 blocks from the beach in FL. Yes it is hot June-September, but if you live on the barrier islands there is almost always a breeze. Get a pool and you can enjoy the heat! There are waves here and WARM water…a lot of weak crumbly days, but it can get EPIC…just have to wait. Lots of beach cruisers and skateboards around town. That being said, we may return to SD but NC (Carlsbad). CA is so beautiful, and we miss our good friends there. Number one lesson from our move – unless you are REALLY familiar with your move destination, rent for a year or so and then buy! Learned that lesson the hard way and had to sell in 2009 before building our beach home.
Shhhhhh…. another san diego (encinitas) > space coast refugee here. Laid back beach vibe, cheaper beachside housing, decent though sporadic surf. Don’t let the secret out!
How about someone that has recently move to Texas, Waco, and lived in CA for all his life before moving, 54 years? Me. I loved CA, beaches, mountains, etc. raised my kids there, it was really great. Was. Sent me kids to college in TX, Baylor and TCU. they stayed and have great jobs. We moved almost 3 years ago out here and I would never go back. Humidity ? I worried about it before I moved, but once you live here you don’t even know it is humid anymore. Hot? Hell I grew up in Escondido and lived in Valencia for many years, , hot there to. My house? Unreal. We moved into the Castle Heights neighborhood of Waco, fixer upper fame, and it is by far the best place I have ever lived, andI lived in Hope Ranch, Santa Barbara for a few years among many other places in CA. The house was $184k, put in about $35K and it is done. 2500 sf, single story perfect for my wife and myself to live out our years. Taxes, $400/month, so no big deal. Everything else is so cheap out here I am almost embarrassed. I keep my mouth shut. Rednecks? Texas is way more integrated than anywhere I lived in CA, nobody cares out here that I know about race. I would recommend that young people starting careers move out of CA. And no knock because I know about the water out in CA but holy cow have the rains been awesome since I moved out here. Water, water, everywhere. Yes some flooding, no bid deal, no crybabies out here. And to have such a green backyard that I do, I love it.
No jobs out there Desmo. It sounds great but it seems you advocate that people still in the work force, however tenuously, move out there and why? To be homeless? Cook meth? I know about dealing in electronic surplus but that’s been down, down, down and I doubt there’s much of that in Waco.
No jobs for you doesn’t mean no jobs for plenty of other people.
I stopped reading when I first saw the word “Waco”…….
Chip and Joanna Gaines make Waco, Texas look cool and hip on their HGTV show “Fixer Upper.” Waco looks like a nice place to live.
http://www.hgtv.com/shows/fixer-upper
They do amazing transformations of homes in the Waco area and are entertaining while doing it.
seismic I also stopped reading your post at “Waco”
Certainly, LA and San Diego share in nice weather, beaches and a general relaxed sense of living; however, there are certainly many other interesting cities in the United States. What I have come to realize after living in San Diego for over three years now is that there is a general lack of culture and/or passion for anything outside of San Diego and it’s even worse when you venture into North San Diego county. Good luck finding a descent and interesting museum (please…don’t bore me with comments about Balboa park as I have been through that and it’s nothing to write home about) or a unique, non-chain-like restaurant. Since moving here I often feel as though I am living in some sort of Twilight Zone episode of superficial friendliness, luxury cars, and million-dollar stucco homes!
PeaceOfMind – can say the same about San Jose. Yeah there’s the Computer History Museum, and the Tech Museum, and some expensive “arty” museums that keep us proles out by costing a day’s pay. We have/had some neat bike stuff … IminusD is gone and Faber’s burned down. We have a library that’s ballyhoo’d to the heavens but frankly the old University of Hawaii library runs circles around it – I was reading Nikola Tesla’s articles in original printings there. Want an ARP2600 manual? Original papers by Paul Halmos? They had it. Meanwhile the San Jose wonderful library never fails to disappoint. People are *very* standoffish here, probably because they’re working their asses off and if you’re not in their work-group and talking about work, they can’t spare the energy. I could go on…
Sure you have sighted some of the weaknesses of socal…..
but mark my words…
you will ulitmately leave CA… and then wish you didn’t, and want to move back…
… I have done this 3 times…. I can back every time, now for good
Holo I left California 3X and always came back. I saw a ton of what you describe in Arizona, people get to retirement age, “blow their wad” buying a house, living in it for about a year, then realize what a sh!thole they were in and want to go back. Hell, in Arizona there are constant scams where someone’ll sell you a house they don’t even own.
For every person who couldn’t hack it after moving away from SoCal, there’s probably multiples of others who did just fine.
North County SD has plenty of good non-chain restaurants. SD in general has a lot of good restaurants. Don’t have time to get to them all, there are so many. How many nights a month do you eat out?
As for the museum argument, that is pretty tired and a classic dig at SD. How many days a year does someone go to a museum? There are lots of great activities in SD. Museums? Really? That is a criteria? Please.
Falconator, I agree. Why are museums and theatres a criteria to how livable a place is? How often does one go to the museum or a theatre? When I had decided to move from LA to NC San Diego, I had numerous people ask me about how I could possibly live without a local museum or a theatre. Or how I could possibly live without world-famous restaurants. What a stupid thing to say or base a move on. I have had better meals and WAY better service in NC SD then LA. Actually the worst service I have had anywhere was consistently in LA restaurants and I have been to restaurants all over the world. As far as the museums, who really cares? I have been to LACMA enough times to not miss it and some of the other LA museums are over-rated. I find that when you are in a place with less people things are much more enjoyable.
Did 8 years in San Diego. My New York friends who lived there called it the movie capitol of the world – there’s nothing to do but go to the movies.
I’ve lived in Oklahoma, Kansas, North Carolina, Michigan, and lastly California. There’s no amount of money you could pay me to move to TX or any of the other conservative states. I think the only states I’d consider moving to at this point would be OR or WA. Being surrounded by dumb, religious bigots makes the price of CA real estate not seem quite so bad.
Don’t even try rural California, you’ll be surrounded by gun-nut* survivalist nutzos waiting for the Rapture or who believe Heaven has come but hasn’t reached “here” yet** who want Trump to become king.
*I don’t mean regular old folks who have guns, I mean the ones nutty about ’em you all know what I mean.
**Yes there’s a religion, with “witness” in the name, who believe that Jesus has returned, he’s just not widely distributed yet. Inoffensive folks, really, but it’s kind of weird.
What rural areas of California are you referring to? Paradise, Placerville, Auburn ? Don’t tell me about the Emerald Triangle, too many bad growers with a twitchy trigger finger there, working for the Mexican Mafia. Forget the people you described, how about the meth people whose labs in the neighborhood can make you sick.
What an dumb bigoted comment by Chris who has never lived in Texas but assumes that everyone there is a “dumb, religious bigot.” Chris is a bigot who needs to stay in California living as a brainwashed slave on his Democrat master’s bankrupt plantation.
An even dumber bigoted comment was made by Alex in San Jose about rural California. Based on Alex’s comments which dominate this site, it’s apparent that Alex’s poor life choices have turned him into a bitter old troll who is another dependent slave on the Democrat’s bankrupt plantation.
I’ve actually lived in rural California, and know whereof I speak. I got along fine with the nutzos, as they were neighbors, store owners, etc and they were perfectly normal until you get talking to ’em and what they actually believe gets mentioned and … wow …
We once lived in rural California as well and now travel there extensively because of work. It appears that Alex haven’t been there in a while. Go inland to rural California and there are a wide variety of people with different opinions and different lifestyles. Spanish is fast becoming the most spoken language in many areas. Are they all gun-nut* survivalist nutzos waiting for the Rapture or who believe Heaven has come but hasn’t reached “here†yet** who want Trump to become king?
NO!
And living in a state dominated by bleeding heart liberals who piss away money chasing questionable causes instead of addressing the real issues is better? Example, why do we need a “Bullettrain” when our own roads, bridges, and sidewalks are deteriorating? What about the aging water mains? How many more have to rupture before something is done?
Oh Gawd that bullet train, that pisses me off no end. We don’t need no stinkin’ bullet train! We need regular ol’ trains that people can rely on. We need regular ol’ trains that don’t cost more to take from SF to LA than an airplane. We need regular ol’ trains that are reliable and don’t have to sideline for freight.
Essentially we needs the 1940s transport system back.
Actually, you can live in ultra conservative Newport Beach. That will cost you 2M+
I know my way around some Newport Beach … firstly, if you’re retired or a minimalist, you can probably buy one of those “dog houses” out on the Peninsula, you can buy a mobil home and there are some nice ones there, I’m not sure how they are about live-aboards but there’s the boat option, etc. There are also a lot of places *around* Newport, too. Frankly it’s a pretty nice area and probably no harder to live in reasonably than any other decent city in California.
Actually, less than 1.75M leaves you directly under the airplane path if you want a decent house. The airplanes are so close it is amazing they don’t condemn those. For a nice remolded 50s home in a better location, like Cliffhaven, Irvine Terrace, Harbor View Hills South, you need at least 2.5M. Anything better hits the 3s.
Wow you are mistaken, I am a conservative and most of my friends are liberal to super liberal. We all get along, you should stop watching CNN and really get to know people not their political/religious affiliations, it seems to me you are the closed minded individual though. I been to Texas and I had a good time, I don’t move there because I have no family there. For now, I will happily stay in Southern Ca plus my wife and I can afford it, even if we aren’t home owners yet.
I have to agree with Hunan and Seismic on this one, there is a lot of vitriol coming from folks here that seem to have a liberal bent and are bitter about not having reached any level of personal financial success. I have lived all over the world and some of the truly most ‘open minded’ people I’ve known have been conservative Christians. Having graduated from an Ivy league school I can say that categorically the most close minded and opinionated people are liberals. Sorry, there I said it.
On most issues, I am a Christian Conservative. However, some of my best friends are Left Wing Liberals. I have no problem hanging with them. When we discuss politics, we stick to the issues we agree on. Furthermore, I respect their viewpoint. When it comes to politics, I was a big Reagan and Bush fan. I was OK with Clinton. While it took some time, I even found some respect for Obama. This time around, I detest both Trump and Clinton, but if push comes to shove, I will go with Trump. Clinton is a crook for taking money for political favors. That is over the line.
jt, speaking of friendly disagreements, we miss your commentary at OCHousingNews.
Its true, liberals are closed minded to bigotry and hate and those who preach it. You got us pegged pretty good there!
Liberals and leftists are all hypocrites who spew bigotry and hate to anyone who dares to disagree with their authoritarian and totalitarian demands.
There fixed it for you Martin.
As for jt’s comments about Obama, only a naive fool would find respect for a lying, race-baiting, Marxist dictator like Obama who hangs with black racists like Al Sharpton, radical leftist anarchists like Bill Ayers, and radical Muslims from the Muslim Brotherhood.
Been a while since I’ve posted here and indeed times have changed…but the Song Remains Same too (always a bull market somewhere!)
Not a “housing expert” save for the disaster called a “reverse mortgage” but no one needs to explain anything after a housing bubble bursts. Clearly that has not happened because you haven’t seen folks gather at South and Vine to explain things “1993 style.” This obviously has in fact happened in Cities all across the USA….with truly terrifying increases in crime going into the “hot season.” Needles to say the answer is not more golf only in Scotland. Yes Americans slaughtering themselves may seem rather amusing…right up there with suing Police Departments I imagine….but at some point the lid blows off these things and your million dollar “crap shack” becomes a pile of matchsticks. Needless to say with this much money at stake a military solution is on the table…just as it was in 1993.
Why else are all those taxes for?
Not for saving Christianity from itself that’s for sure.
I moved from San Diego to McKinney, TX (40 minutes north of Dallas) a few years ago. Yes, there are bugs, some extreme weather in the spring, tough hot summers, and a completely different mindset. The terrain is flat although not Kansas flat in many areas. DFW area is surrounded by large areas of trees and lakes. TX has lots of beautiful country. San Diego is a dry dustbowl. Dallas is a serious cosmopolitan city. SD is a large navy town stuck in 1970. Ron Burgundy. I’ll take a few hailstorms over non stop Santa Ana conditions. We have higher prop tax RATES but housing is still about half of SD so prop tax is a wash. No state income tax. No common core. Cheaper gas but toll roads so that is a wash. State Legislature meets every 2 years which is great. No helmet laws. Open carry. No nanny state crap. No Jerry Brown. No obsession with “climate change.” Freedom. Liberals are nice and contained. Churches are everywhere and full. Kids refer to you as sir and ma’am. People are armed and polite. There’s way more diversity than I saw in SoCal. Native Texans are polite, friendly and much more down to earth. I’ve yet to hear a single person here suggest they may haul up their family and move to CA. I heard the opposite all the time in CA. It’s not all “cheap housing” and cost of living. From my standpoint as a native CA I have to say my only regret is not moving here sooner.
It is not a big surprise about foreign investor’s money. The property market in California is extremely attractive for them because of growing demand among tenants. Residential property markets in the Californian cities of San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Riverside, as well as Portland, OR and Seattle, WA, all demonstrated price growth well above the American average. Los Angeles, San Diego and Seattle have not yet reached their pre-crisis peak, contrary to Portland and San Francisco which have already exceeded it according to https://tranio.com/usa/analytics/house_prices_rental_rates_and_yields_on_americas_top_residential_markets/
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