Who needs a mortgage? How the traditional mortgage market is stuck in low gear and reflects an underlying lack of demand for home buying.
In ancient home buying times, the vast majority of home purchases came from regular families looking to buy a home. When I say buying, I mean committing to a 30 year mortgage financed by a bank. This was the traditional mechanism of keeping the real estate machinery moving. Since 2008, a large part of the buying power has come from “all cash†buyers that simply did not require a mortgage. This has been a dramatic shift in how home sales work. It is interesting to see real estate agents unhappy about this arrangement as well because volume has crumbled. Also, many of the early deals were done via REOs at banks and auctions which were largely off the market for most regular buyers unless you had the funds to purchase a large block of single family homes. So with big investors pulling back from the market, it is no surprise that regular American families simply cannot compete. One good indicator of this is to actually look at applications for mortgages. What we find is that demand for mortgages is simply not there.
Who needs a mortgage?
2013 saw a major jump in prices but not necessarily sales activity. Many real estate agents still remember the early 2000s and wish volume was once again, back to those levels. Alas, it is not. Many investors were “one and done†transactions. That is, they might have bought an REO, made it a rental, and are holding on. One sales transaction. While in the past, you would have two transactions because typically, the person would sell their home and move up the inevitable property ladder (i.e., Compton, Culver City, and then Pacific Palisades). Two commission checks are better than one.
Let us take a look at purchase applications then:
What are we looking at here? What you will notice is that the subtle rise in interest rates kicked purchase applications in the gut. And the rate was already low. What this tells us is that Americans are incredibly cash strapped and need rates to be artificially low simply to get into a home. Yet this chart is limited in scope. Let us look at a longer timeline with mortgage apps, income, and home prices:
Going to the peak in the mid-2000s, practically everything was moving up in tandem. Apps were up, home prices up, and incomes also had a slight boost here too. But now we have mortgage apps collapsing, real household incomes in the dumps, and yet home prices went up. Of course, the main driver here was big investor money on a market with tight inventory. Today, the stalling in the market is a reflection of the above macro forces at work. I don’t care how house horny you are, if you can’t qualify for a mortgage you simply won’t buy a home.
The collapse in mortgage applications is dramatic. You have 7,000,000 completed foreclosures since the crisis hit and a new addition of 7,000,000 renter households over this time. This shift is no coincidence. The economy has been out of recession (technically) since 2009. Why aren’t people applying for mortgages like rabid dogs? Financially, they are not in a position to buy. I’m sure if you ask a homeless person if he would enjoy living in Malibu and gave him the opportunity, he would do so. Desire does not mean financially ability to do so.
And market sentiment is high on something. Look at this:
Homebuilder sentiment is very high yet mortgage apps are down. What we do see is that smart home builders are actually following the feudal landlord nation trend and are building multi-family units:
So this is where the action is at. Home builders are ramping up projects for a growing renter trend. This also explains the continual decline in the home ownership rate. Of course all of this can reverse if households actually start benefitting in actual purchasing power but most Americans are simply leveraged up to their eyeballs. Here in California you have big investors buying, all cash buyers, foreign money, and your local family leveraging up to the hilt just to get in. Big money and all cash buyers have certainly pulled back. So we are left with regular families trying to buy and what a surprise, many can’t swing the mortgage payment with current prices. So now we see a large number of price reductions hitting the market and people regaining their senses. There is no perpetual motion machine in real estate.
People live in a giant bubble and even those with decent incomes have a hard time looking at the bigger picture. For many, they are buying a home because of familial pressure or simply to fit into a mold of success. Some are so blind that they are willing to pay $700,000 for a crap shack. Value gets lost when you can simply leverage debt for a monthly nut. 30 years is a long time and it is fascinating how some think that when you “buy†that somehow you own the property free and clear. This is how we end up with the Friskies eating baby boomers living in a million dollar home with their adult kids moving back home in their rooms with Blondie posters.
So who needs a mortgage? Not investors. Not hedge funds. But your regular family does need a mortgage to buy and clearly demand is simply not there.
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137 Responses to “Who needs a mortgage? How the traditional mortgage market is stuck in low gear and reflects an underlying lack of demand for home buying.”
So do we think that things will move towards a more reasonable home price/income scenario, or do we think that the government and their overlords will simply find a way to get more of the average schmoes into a mortgage?
the owners of this country want the common man in debt …… easier to control
Prices are cracking and we’re still at low mortgage interest rates of around 4.25%. Imagine what it’s going to look like when rates jump by a percentage point in a year?
The middle class in California can’t qualify for loan as it is and mellennials are so strapped with debt and so uninterested in buying a house they’re not going to save it. Average income is basically just keeping up with inflation. Most of the new jobs being created are low-paying retail and hospitality jobs.
Prices will drop by 15% to 20% by 2016 and we’ll be right back to the bottom where we were in 2012.
It will eventually be a 30-35% correction since values didn’t fully correct back in 2012
@Roger Dodger,
Home prices in the U.S. are reasonable except for SoCal, the SF Bay Area, Portland, Seattle, Chicago and the Washington DC/Philly/NYC/Boston megalopolis.
I was pricing real estate in an area not listed above, and 2 bedroom condos were selling for $50K, 2 bedroom starter SFRs (i.e. similar to SoCal/Bay Area crap shacks) were selling for $100K. This is a city that frequently makes the “100 Best Places to Live in the U.S.” type of lists. Median household income is $50K and unemployment is about 4%.
We have a bubble in the U.S. but it is regional and extremely local.
Not sure about the other states, but we definitely have one in Seattle metropolitan area… and it is a pretty big one…
What city is this?
Housing To Tank Hard in 2014!!
@Jim Tanks, we have just 3 months left and no tank on the horizon. You are delusional, @Jim, wake up…
I think Jim is right…. we won’t see the details until next year, because of the election, but the tank has already begun… The banksters and con artists in Washington can hide data without penalty… Real numbers do not exist in America right now.
“Not sure about the other states, but we definitely have one in Seattle metropolitan area… and it is a pretty big???”
Talk about contradict yourself, like I said guy it is the weather up there, move to 340 days a year of sunshine and clear your head from your clouds.
If California GDP is positive for the 3rd quarter of 2014 then forgot about housing tanking in 2014.
No way it can be negative. look at the second quarter GDP, 4.5% wowwwww. REKOVEREEEEEE all the way 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
Seattle Dude, you and Jim have diffrent derinitions of “tank”. If you take SoCal RE, on the whole, for the Ponzi Scheme it is the very MOMENT you lose upward momentum the “tank” has begun. Bubbles have no soft landings so once you reach the inflection point it is straight down hill. Whether the journey from peak to trough takes months or years. I’ve agreed with you that buying time will likely be 2016 at the earliest, but I can GUARANTEE you we won’t see any positive numbers for flippers between now and then. It’s going to he a total downward trajectory obvious to anyone looking. There are ZERO support mechanisms left for this round of the Ponzi, nor can the next round begin without the scheduled deflationary downturn. Jim has been proven right, just not in the way he thought he’d be.
Thanks for pointing out that Mr Seattle is again missing the obvious. He’s quickly become the densest troll on this blog. People like him are why we Californians have made a killing off Washington area real estate the past few decades.
The spring/summer selling season is over, by at least a month. If housing was to tank this year, it would have done so by now.
Some price cuts on delusional asking prices, but selling prices are still rising.
Check this Santa Monica 1929 fixer-upper — “Bring your contractor.” — which was offered for $799k last March, and went for $1.375 million in April: https://www.redfin.com/CA/Santa-Monica/1814-Ashland-Ave-90405/home/6765674
It’s not even north of Montana. It’s in Sunset Park — TWO BLOCKS from the airport runway (albeit, not DIRECTLY under the flight path).
Like I said, price cuts do not necessarily mean tank. @Jim has no idea what he is talking about. You see, we had a little dip, dip doesn’t mean tank hard. Dip is just a DIP. To have the real tank we have to have dip after dip after dip… Home sell at mark up Y-o-Y, whether you like it or not. That’s just the fact. As long a we have sale prices higher on y-o-y basis, we will see no tank.
I don’t know whether US residents can access this below, but a good story and video of about an airline Captain describing his situation, living in trailer at LAX much of the time. I guess it’s just temporary though, convenient and a saving on renting, for the job, probably with a home elsewhere. $60 a month for the authorized airline personnel to park their trailers.
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BBC News
6 August 2009
Airline jobs once inspired respect and envy. But at Los Angeles International Airport about 100 airline employees – from mechanics to pilots – are living in mobile homes parked just yards from one of the busiest runways in the world.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/8186690.stm
I need a $560K mortgage for $700K house ($140K DP)… I am not sure, though, I can afford one. The last one I checked, I would afford $500K house ($100K DP + $400K mortgage) , but, unfortunately, I am not willing to pay $500K for what is currently available in the area. There are still homes at this price range – 60 years old crapshacks, thank you, but no, thank you…
The homes, I would consider buying are in $700K+ range… So, keep renting, keep “sitting on a fence”… 🙂 🙂 🙂 We have one and the only one problem in housing market. The home prices do not commensurate with incomes. This is it. either the home prices have to fall, or people have to start earning moar!
Another month is in the bag, and the hits keep on coming.
First up, the Case Shiller index report released yesterday for July sales shows prices DOWN MoM vs June. http://www.businessinsider.com/sp-case-shiller-home-price-index-sept-30-2014-9
A look at the number of properties listed with a price cut in Orange County shows 41% of the properties listed in August have had at least 1 price cut. The last time the percentage was this high, it was November, 2010. http://i.imgur.com/DelTUGR.png
Finally, the “but prices are still up YoY!” crowd are getting crushed. Prices were up more than 10% YoY this Spring, and have fallen every month since (5.6% in July). The trajectory for YoY prices is clear. http://tinyurl.com/opcmxw7
Housing IS tanking hard, and prices are finally beginning to soften. Good call, Mr. Taylor. 😉
It is softening, I agree, but it is far cry from tanking hard…
HOUSING TO TANK HARD IN 2014!!!!
Is it Ebola, or @Jim Tanknesss is contagious?
In SoCal prices are falling and probably will continue falling for at least 2 years = Tanking
What are you talking about? The world is flat don’t ya know! What goes out never comes back around.
You Da Man Dom-Inator another great post well done 🙂
In the world on infinite fiat money supply and rigged markets you will never expect rational decision, you can never time or forecasts events to take place. This is the biggest ponzy scheme in the US history. Nothing going on makes any sense now. It is a delusional world now. Forget interest rates, forget incomes, forget inflation, non of that matters anymore. FED can do whatever it wants. Falling home prices – here – moar QE, negative interest rates, moar woar!!! Helicopter Ben told you already, he will be throwing money of helicopter if he needs to, you think Felon Yellen won’t? Housing to tanks hard, not happening, @Jim, deal with it. We have 3 months left of 2014, stop making fool of yourself 🙂
THere are 2 issues here. The markets are rigged by the FED. People seem to think this will continue forever. It won’t. Just like 2008. Some black swan event will take care of this. The question is this? When will that be? Who knows. People have been predicting the crash for a while now and its been 6+ years and nothing seems to be happening. The banks are insolvent in a mark to market basis. What is one supposed to do? Give in and believe the FED will control everything. Its hard believing in fundamentals after so many years of manipulation.
‘Housing IS tanking hard, and prices are finally beginning to soften” – YEAH, I hear this BS every year for the last 8 years 🙂
8 years ago, 2006 my house was worth just under a million in Las Vegas , 2011 home is worth 267,000. 2013 home is worth 414,000. 2014 home is back down to 330,000. Wtf are you talking about? Its BS but not the kind you’re talking about.
Don’t you know that Los Angeles is gloriously exempt from historical processes! I read an article about it and pretty soon all of the world’s richest foreigners will be living here. What global trade giveth, it never taketh as long as you buy in the promised land! Might as well stop posting new entries and shut down the blog.
BFresh…Yes rich foreigners calling Cal home or soon to call it home.
Just a note, Americans voted in a poll (53%) for Cal to be kicked out of the union?
I agree, kick the libtard failed state out of the union, I wish the WA could secede too.. it is getting libtarded lately too..
We have less buyers and less sellers, that means less volume. But less volume does not necessarily mean a housing crash. That is where most people go wrong. How many people refi’d at rates below 5%? Those people aren’t moving. Their combined mortgage + property taxes are cheaper than renting an apartment.
Yeah, but hasn’t it clearly been documented the bulk if the purchases were investors? Looking to rent them out? Rents being very tied to the real main street economies. I think a bunch of buyers were betting on an improving economy, some were just short term gamblers but it’s pretty clear things are not any better than when prices were much lower. Do you think they stick it out or can?
as HB’s regular readers and commenters already know, most of these purchases were done by large institutional investors buying up huge blocks of homes at a time through a Federal Reserve Program designed specifically exclusively for large institutional investors. They must hold these homes as rental properties for a minimum of 5 years and renewable one time for an additional five years at which time they must be sold. We will see the results of these actions in that five to ten year window which began in 2012 I believe perhaps a bit sooner. It was posted on the Federal Reserve website for anyone to read that was interested.further, there is no discussion about the still millions and millions of zombies Holmes. I happen to own two of them, that the banks have been unable to foreclose on, or unwilling, since 2009. I’m sure I’m not unique
We are in rekovereeee, didn’t you know that? Just ask Obama and Felon Yellen…
Ton’s of zombie homes, shadow inventory, whatever you like to call it. Even in the SFBA, a friend’s home hasn’t had a mortgage payment in 5 years and the home has not been foreclosed. Friend has been renting it out for the past 2 years and is kicking himself for letting it sit for 2 year empty (he squatted for one year before moving for work to NY)! The housing market, even in Prime areas, is a sham, completely manipulated. Problem is, the gov’t has conspired with banks to manipulate it to prevent loss and price discovery! That’s a big F U to the late Gen X’s, Gen Y’s, and so on…especially if you live/rent in Prime locations.
The only people comfortable in this economy are the baby boomers and early Gen X’s that bought homes before the Housing Bubble in 2000’s. They bought at a low price and were able to refinance to lower their monthly nut. As long as they weren’t greed A-holes and took out home equity loans, they’re sitting pretty and are not moving.
Of course they’re not moving now- house prices in So Cal are ridiculous. However, if prices were to decrease significantly, they might very well move. People like me would never sell (I kept my old residence as a rental), but many people don’t want a rental.
Fewer buyers and fewer sellers, not “less”: http://www.elearnenglishlanguage.com/blog/english-mistakes/fewer-vs-less/
That is too simplistic of a conclusion. Volume historically tends to correlate with prices, so it’s not a stretch to consider it as potentially meaningful in the context of where prices might be headed. Only the hooligans and their prey are using the word crash. That said, the possibility for a significant correction is not necessarily out of the question. Considering that most homeowners don’t fall into the category of having refinanced in the last few years (many aren’t mortgaged or are mostly amortized) and that prices move on the margins, the point about people not moving is moot.
That’s our situation – we refi’d twice in last 3 years. Now have a jumbo 15 year fixed at 2.875%
Even if we found a good deal (impossible, because Houston real estate market is very hot), we would pay a ton more interest. Kind of stuck. It’s good kind of stuck, though.
“We have less buyers and less sellers”
You are half right.
Docs chart above showing mortgage apps speaks for itself. We are at a ~15 year low for mortgage applications.
Inventory, however, is up sharply from last year. https://ycharts.com/indicators/us_existing_home_inventory
Trulia Bubble Watch [http://www.trulia.com/trends/category/bubble-watch/] shows home prices in LA and OC +15% overvalued based on area incomes and rents. The nation as a whole they have as slightly undervalued at -3%. Parts of the midwest are deemed undervalued at -15%. Trulia economist Kolko makes a good case that while some markets are bubbly, there is no evidence of a national bubble, which would lift prices everywhere.
So, all you LA and OC residents with positive equity, time to arbitrage your housing and relocate to the Midwest. Take advantage of that 30% swing in prices, minus the cost of a snow shovel.
That would be a financially shrewd move although a couple of people I’ve heard from who have done just that say it was one of the best things they ever did. They enjoy living in the Midwest. To each their own.
Curiously – if LA OC are overpriced by a measly 15% , if it tomorrow fell by 15% back to what it should be, how many of you sideliners would buy? I doubt any. If you couldn’t afford it now, you still won’t be able to afford it 15% later. And for those that can afford but haven’t, I would imagine were waiting for 50-75% pie in the sky discount , not 15% right?
In my market I’d very strongly consider getting off the sidelines if prices dropped 15%. In markets that run above the national median (more or less the list ernst notes above), 15% can represent a serious swing in real dollars.
Aside from the savings on price it also makes a big difference in other ways – insurance/tax expense, hedge against future reductions, smaller downpayments, etc.
I, actually, look forward for 20-25% dip. I will buy as soon as I can afford. Please see my post above, I have explained it quite clearly already…
hey Seattle dude, why don’t you stop and think about the other opinions posted on this blog. Many of them are well-informed and insightful. You don’t have to argue every point. We get it — you think we’re in rekovery and the market is going to hold up for another couple of years. Now shut up and listen to other peoples’ points of view.
a 15% dip today, and i’d be house shopping tomorrow in my area(long beach, ca)
The shadow inventory in way bigger than anyone is estimating. Yes real estate firms are building apt to accommodate the growing rental class but there’s overbuilding in apts now too. Check this out: http://www.trulia.com/trends/files/2014/09/VacancyRate-SingleFamily.png
The Fed and Govt made it possible to banks to unload a lot of their REO onto the big investment funds, but another cycle of foreclosures is brewing. The banks will like be stuck with that inventory. FNM and FRE will get whacked with more REO too.
QE has caused and extreme misallocation of capital, first into homes and now into apartment buildings. EVERY single homebuilder I look at has taken their land/home inventory back up to where they were at the peak of the bubble. Yet, unit sales volume is only 1/4 to 1/3 the peak levels.
Who is going to buy those homes? Martians? I have several good homebuilder short-sell ideas on my blog.
Great blog, thanks for sharing.
Great entry Doc, and summerizing position into what I would like to believe is a major inflextion point.
It does appear that subtle rise in 30 year had quite an effect. US main banks are in a much stronger financial situation, with all their reserves. Yet lending tight, from both banking side and tapped-out applicant side fallen away.
Who is hurting in all of this? Apart from younger people having housing opportunity, value discovery, denied them (until things turn) ? So few mortgages going through, means less profits for the banks. The last of the cash buyers, with Global QE ending, just helping tilt their exposure from the market, but not making the banks any real money. The money/profit in banking, is in lending. Things must be lean for all the mortgage brokers too.
I track US mortgage info here (link below), but it doesn’t really cover background events, such as tightening lending criteria, nor debt revulsion from pent-up demand, at these high asking prices. (In the UK, some lenders have taken to offering iPads to those taking on new mortgages, and/or ‘cash backs’ and/or offering to pay first year’s property-tax, plus other silly incentives to try and drum up some business… but there is weak real proceedable demand at such high house prices.)
http://www.mortgagenewsdaily.com/consumer_rates/
I need to look/find some of your other entries, and think on them, where you outline how much more house the <4% lower rates allowed buyers to qualify for, in the past. For the subtle increase from lows, may be dramatically playing out the other way, with fewer apps, prices bubbled higher, and tighter lending criteria.
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Doc: (December 2012) 6 percent rates were here not too long ago (2008) and rates were up to 5.5 percent in mid-2009. A 6 percent rate in historical context is incredibly low. So you see with the chart above, at 6 percent a $1,000 payment will get you a home at roughly $150,000. At 3 percent, it approaches $250,000. Yet household incomes remain stagnant. However that drop in interest rates suddenly boosted buying power dramatically."
Repeat after me, I will not fall into the trap of buying an overpriced Home. Interesting to see when interest rates rises. People that buy now at inflated prices is setting themselves up for equity losses when rates rise. All the value is already sucked dry by investors. Think about how many decades to come before you can sell again at a higher than what you bought it for
The rates will never go up without the economy crumbling apart… Expect historically low interest rates for historically prolong period of time…
But what will this prolonged period accomplish as far as housing goes. Eventually these properties have to be bought or rented by people with jobs. Since QE and low interest rates have proven to he job DESTROYERS how do low interest rates help in the face of declining wages? The FED is getting none of the wage inflation they want. And with the inflation in everything else the entire economy is squeezed. All this to save banks balance sheets. It’s like the late 70’s around here, .gov is taking us to the brink yet again.
If rates stay low forever, inflation would eventually rear it’s head in input prices – commodities. At that point, Fed would have to tighten.
Sorry pal, I don’t buy it. You can make all the bold predictions in the world but you have no idea what will happen with interest rates. Maybe interest rates will be 1,000% next year. Maybe they’ll be 1%. We have absolutely no idea. If asked in 2009 what interest rates would be 5 years into the future, I would have certainly predicted higher levels than they are now.
So the real conclusion to this is, buy a house if you can afford it and you’re ready to. What you suggest is that people shouldn’t buy because they’re going to lose money. We simply don’t know that. Even if prices do fall, you have no idea when it will happen. Lets say prices fall 10 years from now, well 10 years of paying into the home loan will have provided enough equity to easily cover the lower home value. Or these people could have been renting for 10 years. Maybe home prices will go flat for 20 years. We have NO IDEA.
Again, buy if you can afford to and you are ready but expect to be in the house for a long time. If you plan on moving in 2-5 years then you don’t need to be buying. I’d say you should stay 15-20 years minimum. If you’re there 20 years, anything can happen to the market and you’ll be above water.
@No Way Jose, you are trying to put words in my mouth. I have never suggested not to buy, all I have said if people get burnt, don’t blame it on anyone else, but yourself. I advising fiscal responsibility, frugality. Saving for future, get out of debt, invest wisely and don’t trust the .gov. I am approaching my mid 30s now, do you think I believe I will ever see my SS check or medicare? Not happening, the government is broke. You have to think about your future, not rely on your house “to save for you” or Obama to get us out of this mess. I am not advising against buying, I am advising against stupid…
It’s hard to buy even when you can afford it. you see sellers pricing homes for such a atrocious amount!!! Just look at the price history on some homes, bought for 490k, added granite counter top and cheap laminated floors. Put back on the market in 2 months for 699k. Cmon seriously? 200k return…..Wow. I hate to give money to these flippers.
Seriously…..banks only are lending to people who really don’t need a loan
“A banker is a fellow who lends you his umbrella when the sun is shining and wants it back the minute it begins to rain.” Mark Twain
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It’s not quite that simple.
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Geoff Burch – ‘Go It Alone’:
The biggest whinges I get are from people who say that their banks won’t lend them money, and the second biggest is the story of what the bank did to them when they went bust.
People joke that a bank is a company that lends umbrellas when it’s not raining. There is some truth, perhaps, in that, but to be fair, if it was my business to lend umbrellas I wouldn’t lend one to a person plunging over a cliff in flames. OK, it may slow the descent a little, but it only marginally delays the inevitable, and I would have lost my umbrella which is my business.
If the banks won’t lend you money, are they mean, cruel and jealous of your success or are they too stupid to see the brilliance of your cunning plans? Look, I am not over-fond of banks myself, but they should be looked upon as a kind of neutral.
If banks think you are a good bet, they want to ‘sell’ you money. The clever bit about selling is that the seller decides when the intended victim will buy, and the subtle thing about buying is buying exactly when you want to. If you let them suck you in, you could be making fatal mistakes.
Banks will be happy to give you an umbrella when it’s not raining.
But wasn’t it what caused the last bubble? Banks were lending to everybody. If you could fog a mirror, you could’ve gotten a loan… People were borrowing 110% of the apprised values of their homes, NINJA loans anyone? I would rather require 20-30% DP and not moar than 3:1 debt to income ratio than let every scumbag to get whatever loan they want. Housing is a privilege, not a right. You have to earn that privilege.
Moarover, I would eliminate Freddie and Fannie and get back to 10-15 years mortgages. Let the market decide what the rate should be and how many years. Without Freddie and Fannie we wouldn’t have 30 years mortgages.
If my memory serves me right, in the last bubble I remember seeing the invention of 40 year mortgages. I recall thinking to myself, wow… payments well beyond the grave 🙂
I just finished Peter Schiff’s latest book. In one section he talks about how housing prices RISE to meet the “bar” ie: say the Mr & Mrs Average Smith have $2,000 a month to spend on total housing costs. If the house price is XX $, and their income is low, then they will have to get a 30 yr loan, and kick in the tax deduction to get it to $2,000. In order words… take away the mortgage interest/prop tax deduction and the ability to lower payments by spreading it over 30 years, and housing would have to come down to a much lower price for anybody to be able to buy.
My dad is a CPA. I can’t recall how many times he’s told me “the more you earn, the more you spend”. When I was a fresh graduate back in the day and got my first few paychecks I lamented to him how I can’t wait for the day when I earn triple this. He said most people spend every penny they make. And he was right. To this day I save/invest at least 30% of my TAKE HOME pay. My dad told me for 20 years how some of his high income clients were always dead broke. Its so true. I’m continually amazed how incredibly irresponsible most people are with money.
While I’m not as fanatical as those “extreme cheapskates” you see on tv, I do watch that show sometimes because I find those people a refreshing change. I mentally pat them on the back. Families of 4 or 5 live on $45,000 a year, and own their home outright, have no debt and they seem to be happy. Good for them. They are the polar opposite to the average American. They lack the “entitlement”, credit-addicted, instant gratification mentality of most people. If more Americans adopted the cheapskate lifestyle, how different this country would be. We may actually be a nation of producers instead of consumers.
I flick thru the tv channels on occasion and sometimes stop to check out the home shopping channels. Absolutely amazing. Selling all sorts of useless CRAP. And the fluffy blonde “hostess” craps on for 30 mins about some POS $300 plastic device like its the second coming of Christ. I read in Forbes once that HSN sell MILLIONS of dollars worth of every product they put on their show. Are people really that brainless?
Yes they are. I know women I work with that have over $100k of crap they’ve never used in their closets or parent’s basements. They like to shop. They are bored, lonely, crazy – who the hell knows what drives them to spend all weekend at shopping malls and every night glued to HSN buying this garbage. Ironically, these same women are dead broke and their credit sucks, by their own admission. I often wonder what the hell is wrong with people to be so irresponsible with money and their future?
The entire financial, retail and real estate system is rigged, and not in Mr & Mrs Smith’s favor.
Tanking Precursors
Auto loans delinquentcy rates rising
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/09/09/transunion-auto-loans-delinquent/15344353/
It also started to happen 2007
http://m.wsj.com/articles/SB119690536188815285?mobile=y
Like I said before, let the f..er eat the cake. How about personal and fiscal responsibility?
“Like I said before, let the f..er eat the cake. How about personal and fiscal responsibility?”
Seattle I let you get away with a lot on this site because I don’t like to chop folks who can’t defend themselves, but sometimes since you have no life but this site I have to go after you sorry.
Stop with the nonsense we live in a capitalist country which means beg, borrow or steal, Americans want the big house, the big SUV, the big TV, been that way because my friend you have one go around, when the Dr. tells you the bad news about your health you wish you owned a piece of the good life?
I own a piece of the very good life so when I get the bad news I have no regrets, stop the soap box poor me and I CAN’T AFFORD A NICE CAR OR HOME, STOP BLOGGING AND LEARN HOW TO MAKE MONEY.
Houses not coming down 20 or 30% or a BMW will cost the price of a Kia because a guy from Seattle can’t afford it. Warren Buffet doesn’t feel sorry for you, he purchased a real estate company and a Auto dealer group in 2014, he is the ultimate capitalist, read and follow people with money then you can afford a Seattle home or better yet move to a place where the sun shines and live a longer life?
@robert, you make no sense whatsoever, many mentioned that on this blog that you keep making fool of yourself. I have a house, that priced right, but i doesn’t sell, blah-blah-blah. Get a life, little @r. All I am saying is that I am despite of people trying to blame their problems on everybody else. The one bought high, then defaulted, it is the bad bankers fault who gave him / her the loan. How about it is YOUR fault because you are fiscally irresponsible. The one earns 6 figs and in debt to their eyeballs. Get the f… responsible for what you do in life.
“Stop with the nonsense we live in a capitalist country which means beg, borrow or steal”
This is where you live, little @r, I live in the country where people work hard and succeed. I despite the scumbags who try to benefit from society such as folks on food stamps, 8th housing, disability, 0-care. People want something for nothing. Get a life, or starve and die like a rat. Want a big SUV, then you should, probably, get your fat ass sometimes out and try to make a buck.
“Houses not coming down 20 or 30% or a BMW will cost the price of a Kia because a guy from Seattle can’t afford it.”
Believe it or not, I care not whether houses go down or not. I am in upper mid class earner, I have enough money. I have no debts, I buy PMs, I do not run the waves of bubbles, I believe in fundamentals and I don’t believe the US criminal banking cartel that is trying to ruin the middle class in this country.
You’ve had my rant, now you can go home 🙂
robert… Wazza is the ultimate capitalist, but has admitted it’s difficult for large investment groups (which have $10s of billions to invest) to get a return – vs smaller funds who are more nimbler and get get good returns from opportunities which only require $500K-$2m.
I see he is nursing a $750m loss on Tesco, this year alone – share price fallen heavily recently (40% ish) – glad I went no where near it, even as for past few years the financial gurus described it as a solid defensive stock. Dry powder rules to me.
Yesterday: Warren Buffett, the legendary investor, admits buying stake in retailer was wrong decision
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11136676/Warren-Buffett-calls-Tesco-investment-a-huge-mistake.html
One problem I see emerging is that older Americans that own homes need to worry more about liquid assets for their retirement and less on their home value. It is becoming clear that they will not be able to unload them to cash strapped younger Americans (at least for prices they might like). The recession has hurt predominantly young people and changed even their demand for SFHs. I keep hearing people saying I can sell my home any day for $XXX,XXX. Do you really think you will cash in the exact day you need the money? You might not be the only optimistic real estate investor.
Stocks flat for the year, home prices flat for 8 years now (though with a big down and a big up), bonds give no returns, and wages are flat. There is nothing that can sustain the market. People aren’t even taking the free money the Fed has provided and taking out new mortgages. WTF?! Enjoy the next 6 mos. I know Jim will.
Gold and silver are at historic lows (considering inflation and cost of mining). Why not buy those? Why would need the FEDs worthless fiat?
Talk about cherry-picking your statistics. You need a reality check:
“Stocks flat for the year”: DJIA +1.35% Year-to-Date – Looks bad, sure
BUT
NASDAQ is up 6.07% YTD !
DJIA: up 11.02% in the past 1 year !!
NSADAQ: up 16.13% in the past 1 year !!!
“home prices flat for 8 years now” – You mean that home prices had the AUDACITY to drop during the biggest recession since THE GREAT DEPRESSION, and have now rebounded to, overall, a little higher than they were in 2006?
http://www.money-zine.com/images/stories/average_home_prices.png
But I agree about bond yields and wages. Don’t beat yourself up, you’re still batting .500 ! Thanks Obama!
Leaf Crusher…Excellent take
DHB’s insights have been pretty right on.
One has to wonder why higher prices haven’t made a rush to build new homes. So I assume the home builders know that without the loose credit of last time, who will they sell to. If salary’s can’t support a mortgage at current prices, they can’t support a mortgage, its that simple.
Tight inventory raises costs on renters making it harder for them to save for a purchase, which will reduce demand. So at some point, something will give.
Here in S Florida, prices are slowly coming down, my guess is that the economy down here can’t support that many local home buyers at current prices. So its not uncommon to see a house with 5-6 cars parked in front of it housing a number of people.
I posted a link to Mark Hanson’s latest toward the bottom of this comments section. If he is right that we’re way overbuilt, then that might answer your question as to why the builders didn’t ramp up building on the price gains of the past couple years.
Here in Utah we are starting to see softening in prices and we are not overbuilt. They are expecting another 1 million people on the Wasatch Front in the next 30 years and we currently have 2 million. Unemployment is low and the recession never hit here (a reason we moved here from LA) Even so and with homes not overvalued in proportion to incomes in my neighborhood we are seeing softening of prices. The national obsession with over spending has hit here too. Incomes do not tell the whole story. Huge numbers of gen Xers I know are in financial trouble as they try to maintain the lifestyle their boomer parents accustomed them to. Square footages here are obscene. Many kids are moving in with parents or never leaving. Lots of these kids are gainfully employed and among the more prudent. Others are older and bouncing back in due to job losses. Families with 6 figure incomes (large in Utah) are one paycheck away from going under and have no retirement savings. I live in an upper income (for Utah, we made more than double in LA) area and about 15% of the people are saving and prudent and the rest are strapped. The incomes are the same.
In another respect:
$500,000 @ 30 years @ 4.5% = $2544 Month payment + $625 Prop Tax + $500 extra home ownership costs. (Assoc, Ins, higher util, etc.) = $3669
In an area with a $500K home rent is likely $1000 month.
If someone has been out of the house market since 2004 – then they have 10 years of savings.
$3669 – 1000 Rent = $2669 saved per month.
$2669 * 12 month * 10 years = $320,280 saved. At a 4% savings rate the $320K would have resulted in $394K.
So if they were able to save $3385 month (Extra $716) they would have $500K.
This is why many buyers have cash! They have been saving up for 10 years waiting to buy a home. Those are the people who are smart enough to buy a home with one payment. Instead of paying over 30 years and make the bank rich.
Also, to save $3385 month you would need to earn $6000 month and live cheap. Most people who earn 100K take home $6000 month – so this is VERY realistic.
A two income household at $100K each could easily save 1MM in 10 years.
Eh, $5500 to $6000 depending on taxes and retirement savings. But you consider they spend on average $2000 or more on rent, unless they are DINK, plus $400 to $500 on utilities, another $500 on food…that’s $3000 left. Throw in car, payment, insurance and gas, that could be $500 to $1000 off the kitty.
They could live ok and still save $2000 per month, but that sounds like a boring life. What about travel, peoples birthdays, kid expenses if they have them, etc?
I think a couple, with a kid of two, that makes $100k probably saves in the neighborhood of $1000 to $1500 per month in retirement and savings accounts if they are responsible.
Either way it’s very hard to save a downpayment in SoCal.
If a couple can only save $1500 month – then they can’t afford the house anyway. So this is a moot point. My comparison was they had enough to afford the house payment thus they could save the money.
And yes, a boring life to some, may mean a early retirement and the ability to not have to worry about money. It’s pay now, or pay later.
Duh! You can’t afford $500k of house on a $100k salary anyway. I don’t care what anyone says, even the vaunted “Cali” argument, spending 5X salary on a home is unhealthy in many ways.
As a side note, as long as you rent and you have a 401k your entire working career, you will be ok in the long run. Retiring with a million in a 401k and using your Social Security, you’ll survive just fine.
(Yes SS will be around forever. They will cut the benefit level to 75% and raise taxes, but bet your leveraged house it ain’t goin nowhere.)
In CA, a $100K income for a family of 3-4 are not saving a dime after living expenses, transportation, medical and housing.
@The Realist,
You are realistic. A $500K home bought with an FHA loan (most likely scenario in SoCal) would mean a monthly principal-interest-tax-interest (PITI) of $3400. The income needed to reasonably support that type of monthly nut is $125K a year. That pretty much excludes the bottom 85% of the SoCal households.
>In an area with a $500K home rent is likely $1000 month.
Where is this location were houses cost 500K and rents are 1000/month for the same property?
Also the mortgage and taxes for a 500K property are $2500, assuming you put 20% down. Your values are assuming no downpayment at all.
I didn’t say for the SAME property. I said in an area where they have $500K homes you will find rentals for $1000 month. Almost everywhere in the US except coastal cities. The rental will be a 2BR/1BA apartment unit and the home will be much nicer.
Where I live – Pasadena Area, the homes cost about $1MM and the rentals are $2000 month. It’s just a average. But no you are not renting the $1MM home for $2000, you are renting a much lesser place.
The idea here is that people are living below their means and saving up. Worked for me, I just don’t want to pay the high prices. I am saving the extra money every month as I like where I rent.
CASH IS KING!
CASH is worthless fiat paper. You can’t even wipe your ass with it, which means the toilet paper has higher value than cash.
@ sean1. Well if it worked for you and have so much Cash is king in the bank.
Why didn’t you buy 2 years ago?
In 2012, I did NOT have the money I have now. I did have the debt that I do NOT have now (student loans, medical bill, bigger auto loan.) better credit now.
people like you will never buy in Cali !
@Tequilini
My situation does not need a home. I travel for work and my rent is cheap. Buying a home would only create more debt and tax burdens that far exceed what is needed. If I had a family and wanted into a school system I could see the benefit.
Also, the returns in a well balanced mutual fund were on par or better than home ownership.
You are right, I may never buy in CA. If it makes financial sense to rent and I am happy – why not?
@ a guy from seattle
Yes, I only have worthless fiat money and owning a toilet would be better. But the last time I checked, I was still able to use this worthless pile of fiat paper to trade for a home, car, or food. Do you drag your toilet to the grocery store to barter for food in Seattle? We don’t do that in California.
Where do you see $500k homes renting for $1k? In my area, a $400k rents for $2.1k.
I am talking about renting a normal rental unit. Not a home of the same value. So I would guess, given that you can find a $1000 rental in your area that is safe enough to enjoy?
You forgot to mention the rate at which the FED is debasing the currency. 10 years from now your savings will probably lose 50% of its value. 4% saving rate, @What? Where did you come with this from? The savings are 0.000001% now. Even 10 years notes are 2.5% something… The stocks is a gamble now, you can try stocks, but with current valuations you can easily lose 50% of your savings. Bonds? No yields in bonds, like I said. Where to put your money for the next 10 years, so the FED cannot get their dirty hands on it.
OMG The end of the world is coming! We should all trade our money for gold and stock pile food and water! Lets all move to caves and live off the land!
I don’t believe in the next 50 years of my life I am going to see that world fall apart as you say it will. If everything goes to crap – owning a home won’t mean anything because we won’t be able to pay for a police force to protect it – or for teachers to teach the kids – of for food.
Everything is manipulated – and the powers that be don’t want a society in chaos. As chaos doesn’t pay the taxes and the interest on the loans.
As for 4% a balanced mutual fund did FAR better. Banks paid 0 for the most part. But that 0 means 3% loans to fuel the housing market. So once the banks pay better the interest rate will rise and the home prices will fall.
No one knows what the future holds. But there are many like yourself that profess the end of times as we know it and financial doom for all. But every day the sun comes up the world must move on. I have a lot more confidence in humanity then to think we are just going to give up and watch the system explode.
@ a guy from Seattle: ‘Where to put your money for the next 10 years, so the FED cannot get their dirty hands on it.’
I think we’re going back to times Warren Buffett’s Grandfather experience, when building a cash reserve (see below). Obviously in the letter he’d been through the worse of it at the time of writing the letter and putting the cash away at post-crash market… rather than investing it… I’m suggesting it’s time for cash now. Earning 0% on your money is better than losing 50% in toppy markets.
I wouldn’t worry about inflation, or chasing yield in toppy markets. It seems to me some of the most intellient market participants are going towards ‘dry powder’.
See this letter by Warren Buffett’s Grandfather: http://www.lettersofnote.com/2011/10/everyone-should-have-reserve.html
Wednesday, 12 October 2011
Everyone should have a reserve
Intro:—-> In 1970, he discovered the following letter in a safe deposit box along with the $1,000 cash mentioned therein. 30 years earlier it had been sent by his grandfather, Ernest — a grocery store owner — to Warren’s uncle, Fred, and Fred’s wife. Similar letters had also been sent to Ernest’s other children.
Why stop there with a cheap rental. You could live in your car are a homeless shelter (and get free food)…imagine all the money you could save in a decade. 🙂
Your hypothetical scenario doesn’t work in socal unless somebody is willing to live in a cockroach infested ghetto dump where you fear for your safety on a daily basis and essentially put your life on hold for a decade by not spending a penny. Any takers here?
That’s not true. I know single 20/30 somethings earning that sort of money that live in nice West L.A. rentals with roommates. Assuming they aren’t pissing away every dollar, they could easily save quite a bit and still live in a decent area.
In LA with homes around $1MM, the rent is about $1500-2000. You are not living in the ghetto for that price.
A homeless shelter if for those who need help. It’s not something to make fun of or a place to use to save money.
Just because someone chooses not to spend every dime I make on housing doesn’t make them a fool. Many people in CA could retire in a cheaper state – I think I could retire in TX of AZ on what I have earned and saved the past 20 years. But I like CA and I enjoy working. So I will just continue to save. If one day I see a good deal on a home, I’ll buy it, what’s the hurry?
RE: Dan
Since when is West LA a decent area? LOL!
Seriously, unless your rich living in “Prime” SoCal is masturbation. You slave away and drive by the amenities while the .01%ers actually enjoy them. So much better to live within earshot of major metropolis cities and enjoy them from time to time while keeping the day to day expenses lower.
Dumb buyers abound, our friends have their house listed for $979 a buyer viewed the house, the home is about 10k under market value. The buyers agent informed the sellers that they bought another home last night 6 blocks away, it was in the $1.3m range.
Looks like for $350k more the buyers got a extra oven, 1 bath more, about 100 sq. ft., larger that was it. You tell me, I see this all the time stupid buyers with money continue to up the anty with little rhyme or reason.
Our friends played by the rules list just below value and their house continues to sit while agents steer cash buyers into over priced turkey’s based on a bathroom, oven and 110sq ft. bigger?
The “stupid money” is slowly running out.
I can hear the DESPERATION from the Real Estate Agents/Brokers.
One of the Agents I know has 15 years in the market and he says:
” The Summer Real Estate Market never came to Southern California”.
We have a foreclosure on a NEWLY BUILT HOUSE built by a Professional Property Developer — This house is now in Foreclosure.
It was on the MLS for 18 months and this is a NEW HOUSE from the ground up
and they COULD NOT SELL THIS NEW HOUSE.
*** More bad news will trickle out VERY SOON.***
P.S. The Foreclosure is in the 91016 Zip Code.
Paul – ( not a Realtor )… “stupid buyers want to meet stupid sellers,” as a former part owner of auto dealership, can’t tell you how many times folks didn’t even know they could come off the MSRP?
Ps Good point on the collapse of summer sales not only in most of Cal but the Southwest per say. STAY SAFE
Robert:
…correction …. “Stupid Buyers” get screwed/suckered by “Smart Sellers”,
that’s how stupid buyers lose their money on over-priced purchases – it could be Real Estate or Automobiles or “Dream Vacations” or Jewelry —
i.e. BUY NOW IT’S ON SALE, LIMITED TIME OFFER, YOU’LL NEVER SEE A PROPERTY or AUTOMOBILE or JEWELRY or ….whatever … Ever Again… Buy NOW !!!!
THAT’S THE POINT THE STUPID BUYER PARTS WITH HIS MONEY
… someone has to take the money away from them.
Once they KNOW they got “ripped off” — eventually they get Smarter –
It takes time …… but even stupid buyers get smarter.
A long time ago we were all either Young, Foolish, Desperate, Naive …. OR JUST STUPID.
In my younger days …. when I knew much less … I was a “stupid buyer” also.
Today – I’m a wiser and richer and older man.
” BUYER — BEWARE”
If you can even believe the agent, perhaps seller of $1.3m house accepted a lower offer from buyer. Time will tell.
Please update us with the outcome if and when your friends house sells. Playing by the rules… discounting by a measly $10K, seeking this $979K. Surely they will find a buyer to pay them ‘what it is worth’. If not maybe they’ll have to alter the rules, and lower their asking price. My advice when you’re invested in overvalued assets (if you think you are), is to panic first to escape the market.
Brain Of England…Thanks Brian for the feedback, the home is basically the same model, the sold home opted for the full bath, chiefs kitchen which includes double oven, and a 10×10 computer room. My point, how does this translate to a home listing for $1.3m ( getting a offer about 66 days) and our friends listing for $979 ( going value of comps in development for this model $989) and no offer sitting about 4 months?
What did the buyers really pay, we will know when it closes, but I would summarize that since the buyers didn’t request to see our friends home to leverage their offer on the $1.3m dollar house they either have all the money and don’t care, or are just plain dumb, and their agent did them a disservice ( what is new).
PS Brian, they must have paid cash, no way that house will appraise since last closed sell of like home in April was just over $1m.
@robert “…10k under market value…”, “…house continues to sit…”
buah-ah-aha-hah-ah-a-ha-ha-ha-ha. 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 You just contradict yourself 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂
I know you live in Seattle where depression is prevalent because of lousy weather, but do you also drink? ah-a-ha-ha-ha-ha back at you mate!
Don’t bother, Robert. Mr Seattle doesn’t get it and never will.
Seattle real estate hasn’t always been out of reach for households with above average salaries, like Mr Seattle claims to have. Intelligent investors know how to interpret the signs and anticipate proper buying opportunities. If Mr Seattle chooses to waste his time posting on a SoCal real estate blog from his mother’s basement, instead of focusing on how to take advantage of a falling market, then let’s let him wipe his ass with his “worthless fiat paper” cash and eat his cake too.
little @r, it is interesting how people who make no sense always turn it to “what are you smoking”, “you are a racist/sexist/antisemit”, etc. Just a common libtard opinion on everything… I wonder if you voted for Obama in the last election…
@Seattle$$$Investor, I am taking advantage of falling prices of… precious metals 🙂 🙂 . Lets see if my gold outlasts your house 🙂 🙂 🙂
“CASH is worthless fiat paper. You can’t even wipe your ass with it, which means the toilet paper has higher value than cash.”
There you go again Seattle, try going to a pay restroom and offer the attendant a roll of Charmin to get in?
I have to agree with Robert on this. I don’t know of any analysts or pundits that predicted the recent dollar strength. Just like housing, the dollar has went up and down over the decades.
Here http://www.guidancefs.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/zimbabwe_currency.jpg, something interesting to see. Try to figure it out 🙂
You know I’m up late tonight as a x ball player I watch to many games and then don’t sleep after which is bad for my capitalist health?
Goodnight SEATTLE, had fun with you but please wake up and smell the roses, America for all its issues is still the greatest country on God’s green earth (Michael Medved a Seattle resident BTW) always says and he is right.
We are a little bit of everything in America from capitalism to socialism to maybe even a little communism dare stay it, a melting pot like our society so enjoy and don’t get to excited about it, as long as the dollar is still the world’s currency you can sleep well my friend.
Little @r, I have no idea what you are talking about. Who is Michael Medved and what is x ball?
You claim to be from Seattle, but don’t know who Michael Medved is?
Medved is what is currently wrong with the (R) party. A status quo guy with little original thought of his own.
Seattle hope this post doesn’t repeat it went way, stayed up very late tonight as a x ball player I watch to many games after them I can’t rest. Sorry to rag on you tonight.
As Michael Medved says ( a Seattle resident BTW) America with all its ills still the greatest country “on God’s green earth”.
We are a little bit of everything like our society, from capitalist to socialist to dare I say some communism, sleep well Seattle and all bloggers really, because as long as the dollar stays the world’s currency we are good to go.
http://mhanson.com/archives/1674
Have any of you read Mark Hanson’s latest blog post? This guy has been in the industry for decades and was way out in front on the last major turnover in housing. You might remember him from the Mr Mortgage videos on YouTube. Really compelling stuff at that link.
It looks like Marc Hanson is saying prices will drop 10% – 20% over the next 2 years…he is probably right and that will be back to 2013 prices or 2012 prices. Will this being all the people who are crying about home prices in LA to suddenly open their checkbooks???
Considering many areas skipped the Housing Bubble 2.0 gains I believe a 10-20% national number means 25-30% for SoCal, higher in the inland and lower in LA/OC proper. Incomes matter even more in the Inland areas and the Labor Participation number being at 36 year lows along with wage DEFLATION does not bode well for housing prices in the working class areas of SoCal.
QE Abyss wrote: “…Will this being all the people who are crying about home prices in LA to suddenly open their checkbooks???”
Ummm, no.
You must not be familiar with the job scene since 2008. Most of the jobs that have been created over the past 6 years have been low-end McJobs or part-time jobs.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/erincarlyle/2014/08/11/american-mayors-address-pledge-to-fight-income-inequality-low-wages/
“Jobs created through the second quarter of 2014 paid an average of $47,171, 23% lower than the $61,637 average wage of jobs that disappeared during the recession”
Those type of wages means that a $375K shoe box shack in Gardena is out reach for many.
And another thing, that $375K shoebox in Gardena, if the buyer gets an FHA loan using a 3.5% down payment, the monthly nut (principal-interest-taxes-insurance) will be $2500 a month. That means an annual income of $90K a year would be required to afford that $375K shoebox in Gardena. Anything less than $90K a year, the buyer is going to stressed out financially.
I have appreciated Hanson’s analysis over the last couple of years.
He recently got rid of his comment section.
He probably got tired of all of the kooks spewing on and on about “moar” of this and “moar” of that.
Just relax, India is stepping into any vacuum our Chinese friend’s leave http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/02/business/owning-a-piece-of-america.html?_r=1
And please stop with the “moar” and “woar” stupidity.
Take it easy, pal. Moar woar (Libya, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine, etc) is @What? we need to fix the economy. Remember, the world woar 2 has ended the great depression, right?.. right?
This Settle Guy…. is quite annoying.
Nothing insightful, constructive, or well researched…
Lame responses and childish answers with a million smileys .
I read this blog because it is not Yahoo!…
@Seattle$$$Investor? I agree, he is… little @r too, don’t ya think? 🙂 🙂 🙂
What? 😉
He said @Seattle$$$Investor is annoying and I agree 🙂 🙂 🙂
I miss “What?” … who is a much more entertaining troll than Mr Seattle.
If Mr Seattle could expand his mental capacity beyond regurgitating tired diatribes from MSM and Fox News, I think we’d all enjoy this blog a little more.
Mr Seattle is clearly very young, because he has zero understanding that
1) The world does not necessarily reward hard working individuals. Never has. Never will.
2) Housing sales volume in Seattle, and eventually prices, will eventually follow SoCal’s downward momentum, just like they always do.
3) Buying gold and silver right now because they’re at “historic lows” may not be the most astute financial plan.
Perhaps Mr Seattle deserves a pass.. cause hey, we were all young and stupid at one time, right?
…. And 4) Not all bloggers and commenters are male.
Hey “What?” .. can you help us out here & teach Mr Seattle how to be a better troll? 🙂
Employment rate at 5.9%, of course the fed doesn’t dare raise rates on this skewed number I hope?
Then again Al Qaeda is defeated (Obama) and Iraq possesses WMD’s (Bush). Come on Robert, who knows what will happen next in the beltway?
@r, riaaaaaaaght…. and what is the labor force participation rate? 36 years low? And what kind of jobs were created, min wage low income jobs? and what age groups? 80% of the jobs were in 55+ age group… You see, little @r, you make no sense. The FED will never raise the interest because they now if it does, the ponzy will crumble apart.
… almost forgot, the average hourly salary actually declined. So, now we have fewer working people who earn less money…. rekovereeeeeeeeeeeee
@r “Al Qaeda is defeated”, riaaaaght, IS (ISIS, ISIL) never existed and will. Before scumbags Obama and Bush took office, Al Qaeda was primarily in Pakistan and Afghanistan, now they are in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Africa, thanks Obama and Bush for bringing moar piece (woars) and prosperity (foodstamps)… try harder, little @r…
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